Érik Morales vs. Juan Manuel Márquez

Meh, that point is overstated. It wasn't really harped on too much back then and has only become a major revisionist talking point as part of the Pac army's (to which you unambiguously belong) rhetoric.

Corrales' readiness to move up to lightweight had of course been no secret, as he vacated his belt after his TKO defense over Manfredy, but he came in that night with a quarter pound to spare and looked just fine, and that was just a few months before he fought Mayweather. A few years later he would split a pair with El Cepillo in the first two-thirds of their rivalry, both times at super feather, weighing 128½ and then 130lbs on the nose and boiling off no more excess poundage and looking no less gaunt (even in the rematch, in which he actually beat Casamayor) at the weigh-ins than he did with Mayweather.

Chico struggled with making weight, but isolating the loss to Mayweather as some lone instance of him being unfairly disadvantaged by draining is a misrepresentation of the facts. He was a weight cutter who picked on naturally smaller man throughout his prime and rise in the sport, much like a Broner or Chavez Jr. in more recent times. It wasn't like Mayweather stipulated a catchweight or anything, which for the record is a slope I'd expect a member of the Pac army to consider too slippery to really want to go down this road of casting aspersions on anybody taking advantage of "drained" opponents. Chico was orders of magnitude closer to "himself" in the ring that night at the MGM Grand - as in, his regular, usual self - than DLH was in that same venue seven years later.

I'm not disputing that whatsoever. Morales was empirically and undeniably more courageous on the whole than Mayweather over the course of their careers. I never suggested a word contrary to any of that. I just said that declaring that one particular moment enough to overshadow any bravery Mayweather ever displayed in his entire career was a hyperbolic statement, which it was.

Mayweather by no means lacked courage but Morales' courage was levels above his. That is a true statement, as much as "Morales by no means lacked technical skills but Mayweather's technical skills were levels above his". Saying either man was completely overshadowed by the other in each respective category in no way diminishes the other as being found wanting in that category, it just means the one doing the overshadowing was that remarkable in said category.

No, in fact, I can not imagine him ever pulling such a wonderfully boneheaded and incredible showstopping maneuver as that.

That's down to just differing philosophies and motivations in the ring between them. Mayweather cared about winning. Morales cared about pleasing the fans.

Disagree. He was risk averse compared to someone like Morales, but I don't consider that a truthful statement in the least. He fought through a bloodied nose with a surprisingly game Cotto and willfully exchanged with him. Stepped in with Chico, and Canelo, and Hatton, when most experts considered those dangerous propositions. I don't think you can make a reductive claim that he "lacked heart".

Of course. That is his prerogative, and is why he was never destined to achieve that "folk hero" status that Morales did. That doesn't make him a coward, however, and that is something haters just can't accept.

 

Surviving that spate of knockdowns early in Pac I and coming on the way he did from then on - goosebumps. I think even the other two Mexicans of the Fab-4 (as much as they are prideful and petty little bitches sometimes, especially in their attitudes towards each other & Márquez and where they all stand) would say they had to give him a tip of their hat for that, if you asked their opinion about it.

 

Actually that wasn't the takeaway from that fight at all, I don't think. Chico was a beast, and Floyd tamed & beat the beast out of him.

I'll see if I can find it, but there was a recent thread on this fight and one poster, who is a vocal Pacquiao fan and Mayweather critic, actually said "this is one Mayweather victory that is actually both great and credible", which I found a very refreshingly fair admission.

Saying he was a hype job that got exposed that night is just unconscionable (and driven by a compulsive urge to deny Mayweather any credit for anything), I think, given both the path of destruction he left in his wake before Mayweather and the fact that he would later go on to count his best coups, over the likes of Casamayor, Freitas, and JLC, after this loss.

 

Updated standings:

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23-9-1 Morales

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14-13-6 Márquez

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30-2-0 Márquez

53-38-7 edge to Márquez overall.

 

True but there is only so much you can really criticize a boxer for choosing to point-score their way to victory, as that is a perfectly valid method per the rules - and in fact, the stated object. The point of boxing, and the reason it was created, was never to knock people out - that is a nice bonus if and when it happens but has never been the foremost goal or the raison dêtre of the sport.

Cory Spinks had the same temperament as Mayweather, never going for the KO (though unlike Mayweather - who could hit reasonably well and get tough opponents' respect when he needed to - Cory also lacked the power to have gotten many even if he tried :yep) - but I would never say he lacked courage. He took on Ricardo Mayorga fresh off two events that would make virtually anybody **** their pants and want nothing to do with the Nicaraguan savage: the sudden death of his own mother (which he internalized to fuel his will to win, much as Buster Douglas is hailed for 'courageously' doing in the upset of the century in Tokyo..) and Mayorga coming off two consecutive triumphs over the previously unbeaten, prime, and highly p4p rated Vernon Forrest. That alone, in my opinion, puts Spinks on an untouchable pedestal as far as having proven his manhood - and that isn't even all! He also got off the canvas to defeat a prime Zab Judah, and then gave him a rematch when he didn't really have to!

Was he a blood and guts warrior in the ring, with the kind of take five to land one temperament guys like Morales or Barrera had? No, of course he wasn't. Neither was Mayweather.

...but that doesn't mean you get to call them cowards.

 

ooh, that's a GREAT battle. Man, talk about missed opportunities.

 

This is fascinating, watching how the poll is trending, with the prevailing wisdom expressed by most of us actually discussing this (instead of just silently hit-and-run voting, you shy bastards! :cus) supported by the results being stretched like a piece of taffy, with Morales pulling away in Epoch 1, Márquez in Epoch 3, and the middle a dead heat with them neck & neck with several votes on the draw.