16 offers to Kearns for Dempsey - Carp fight in 1919

Despite what a revisionist states there was interest in A Dempsey - Carp as early as 1919 up til before the Siki fight in 1922. When this myopic spinner of tales claims he was ducking Greb.

December 21, 1919

16 offers for fight

Kearns tonight announced he had obtained sixteen offers for a match between Dempsey and Georges Carpentier of France. They were:

D.J Tortorich, New Orleans $200,000 for Dempsey’s end

Colonel Miller, of Oklahoma, $300,000

Otto Floto, Kansas City, $200,000 purse

Vienne, Paris $250,000 to Dempsey for a match in Paris

Jack Curley $150,000

Decoin $250,000 for a match in Paris

Prince Murat and duke Decases offer to outbid any promoter for a match in Europe.

Portland, Ore $100,000 purse

Booker and Mitchell $250,000 to Dempsey for fight in England or France

Billy Gibson $250,000, to Dempsey for a fight in America

Fritz Mente, Bridgeport, Conn $100,000 to Dempsey

James W. Coffroth, $400,000 purse for fortyfive round bout in Tia Juana, Mx

Morris Penter, Pueblo, $250,000 to Dempsey, for fight at Pueblo

William R Parson, New York City, $150,000 plus 1/3 of profits to Dempsey for fight in London

Ben Stein, Milwaukee, $1000,000 Francs to Dempsey for a fight in Paris

Charles Cochran, $350,000, for purse to fight in England

 

klompton2, post: 18330918, member: 99355"]What revisionist would that be? Whe exactly said there was no interest in Carpentier-Dempsey prior to their 1921 bout

I am so glad you asked, you said that Carp ducked Greb, not true, he had a Dempsey fight in mind before 1920 and up to the Siki fight in 1922. He wasn’t interested in the Greb nor did he have to be.

klompton2- and what exactly does the Siki bout have to do with any of that?

Simple my dear learned one of spins, timeline, Carp was interested in Dempsey not in Greb and of course you find it easier to say someone ducked, implying they were afraid, then facing the truth of the matter.

klompton2-Trying to redirect the discussion away from the fact that Carpentier ducked Greb

He didn’t duck Greb he had other fish to fry. I am not trying to redirect the discussion, I am stating what the truth was, he had Dempsey in mind.

klompton2- and a second highest career payday to face an unknown,

You have posted your great knowledge of Carp, I am wondering what knowledge? Siki, might have been unknown in the states, but he was well known in Europe and France. So why continue with that line of thinking? O I know it fits your agenda.

klompton2- crude, Siki in a fight he admitted trying to fix isn't going to work by using Dempsey as your foil.

Moot point of a gossiping old lady looking to disparage a great fighter. If Carp had won then you could spew manure about this “fix’’, that didn’t work out for Carp. lol

klompton2- You MIGHT have an argument if Carpentier actually turned down Rickards offer and instead fought Dempsey again for MORE money.

Boy, are you as clueless as you sound? The Dempsey plan went south when Carp lost, but you know that. For a guy who was scared to death of fighting Greb, Carp fought Tunney who whipped the dog pyss out of Greb.

klompton2- (except the fact that he was champion and a champion is expected to defend against the most suitable challenger...

Sorry you keep putting your revisionist thoughts into what people did 90+yrs ago, and it is not going anywhere. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that, Dempsey, Carp and all the rest of that time period were under no obligation to fight anybody just cos a promoter made an offer. What cant you understand that an offer is just an offer to someone, not an obligation. You 90+ plus yrs later is saying that “a champion is expected to defend against the most suitable challenger”, and that is proof that they ducked, no it’s proof that you are putting what you think now, into the actions of people who lived 90+yrs ago.

klompton2- not that you agree seeing as how you think champions should be allowed to fight any old trash they want to to prolong their reign).

Here you are again spinning, these are things you should know and choose to ignore. Dempsey fought decent guys who all had winning records and were the top guys of that era. The Harry’s, you know both had issues, why do you ignore that, in favor of your storyline which you know is not the whole truth. “Prolong their reign”, more comedy from the professor of spins

klompton2- But according to even your less than brilliant "business" arguments Carpentier made a bonehead move and a cowardly duck and came out looking worse for it in the mind of the public.

Even God, makes mistakes a good example is looking back at you in the mirror. Here is another insightful spin from you “ a cowardly duck”, anything to fit you way of thinking. Finally It's called PROFESSIONAL BOXING for a reason why cant you accept something you should already know about.

 

This is what the forum should be Senya lays it out without editorializing so people can make up their own minds.

 

Here is a condensed version of the 6 articles, I wrote it as it was no embellishments.


The first article:

Interesting points-May 26, 1922

Carp says he is willing to battle Greb

As soon as the best arrangements can be made

Site- Boyle’s thirty acres site in Jersey

Date-July – Aug

Purse- $150,000

Carp’s opinion no French promoter will offer as much as Rickard

Carp’s opinion that probably the fight will be held in the states.

2nd article -May 26, 1922

Interesting points-

Nothing official by MSG

Negotiation by Rickard and Deschamps

Deschamps interested in fight

Deschamps confident

Boyle’s thirty acres site in Jersey which didn’t allow for a decision if it went the distance

Greb would have to ko Carp to win

Small risk for Carp in fighting Greb in Jersey no-decision bout allowed only.

NY is out cos they allow decisions

Terms for Dempsey-Carp contract calling for a rematch in London or Paris before Spring of ’23, provides that in case either one loses the contract is null and void.

There is demand here(NY) for a Carp –Greb fight

But the fight will draw well in either state



3rd article- May 29, 1922

Greb turns down offer to fight two men on the other side

George Engels says Carp fight has to be in states

Offered $20,000 for 2 fights in England

Would receive $10,000 for each bout

Engel said no, cos Greb could make more here

If Carp wants to fight Greb it will have to be in the states say Engel



4th article- June 5, 1922

Greb would give Carp a hard fight

Edgren predicted greb win over Tunney

Greb won Tunney fight on sheer relentless aggressiveness

Edgren-“it was almost a certainty that the smaller and more experienced man would outpoint him.”

Edgren-“what Tunney may be able to do in a year or so is another matter”

Edgren-“Tunney has a lot of time ahead for improvement

Edgren-“ Greb is probably very near the height of his career right now

Edgren-“If Greb wants to change his style and hit harder he can do it.

Greb has plenty strength, if he picks openings and sets himself to punch he ought to be able to hit as hard as any man his weight. He’s built for hitting and has speed to put into a punch.

Going on his way, swarming all over his victims and giving them no chance to balance themselves to send over hard punches.

He can beat a lot of HW’s. He thinks he can beat any HW.

Not conceit, it’s Greb aggressive spirit that makes him plunge and tear and never stop hitting while there is anything in sight to hit.

Greb is well marked, he has been through a hundred or so hard fights in everyone of which he plunged in headlong and was always willing to take a blow to trade back half a dozen. He carries the scars of a warrior. Looking at Greb no one would pick him out for a clever boxer, but he is clever. He got his ring marks before he reached the top. The best men he beat in the past year haven’t as much as given him a scratch or “bum lamp”.”

GREB BEST MAN IN COUNTRY AT CARPENTIER'S WEIGHT.
HERE'S some inside stuff. Along In 1920 I visited Tex Rickard one day at his hotel In New York. Rickard wanted to talk over possible opponents for Georges Carpentier, who hadn't fought in this
country yet. Several middleweights and light-heavyweights were named.
"Tex," I said. "There's Just one man of his weight in the country to give this Frenchman a battle. Get Harry Greb. You'll have a great fight and If Carpentler can get away with Greb
there'll be some sense In matching him with Dempsey afterward. If Greb beats Carpentier it will show
that a Dempsey-Carpentier match would be a joke. Greb will either beat him or put up the hottest losing
fight ever seen in the old Garden, you couldn't get a better fight to suit the crowd. You won't have any trouble signing Greb. He'll Jump at a chance to fight anybody. That's the best match you could fix up for Carpentier. Let the Frenchman show how good he is.
Rlckard looked at me thoughtfully and said nothing. But I think he was disappointed because I didn’t say
say a few kind word for Levinsky. He must have had Levinsky in mind, for a couple of days later the matching of Carpentler and Levinsky was announced. Probably Rlckard was already figuring gate receipts for Dempsey-Carpentier match, Greb might have spilled the beans.
Levinsky was recognized as American light-heavyweight champion by virtue of his having taken a 12-round decision over Jack Dillon back in 1916. But Bat was fighting a lot of heavyweights like Carl Morris, Gunboat Smith. Bill Brennan, Billy Miske, Charlie Weinert and Jim Coffey, and probably the punches he stopped didn't do him any good. After Jack Dempsey knocked him out in 1918
Levinsky lost ambition and began to go back rapidly, He put on fat and his speed disappeared. When he
fought Carpentier he was such an easy mark that the bout looked like a frame-up.



5th article -June 06, 1922

RICKARD SENDS ANOTHER CABLE TO CARP. OFFERING
$150,000 TO BOX GREB
Because he had not received any answer to the cablegram he sent Georges Carpentier the night Harry
Greb won the American light heavyweight title from Gene Tunney, Tex Rickard, the promoter, last night sent another cable across seas renewing his offer of $150,000 for the Frenchman to come here and defend his world's title against the Pittsburgher in Boyle's Thirty Acres, Jersey City, this summer.
"I can't account for Carpentier's failure to reply to my previous offer, except possibly that
the message was delayed or lost In transmission," said Rickard. "I think the offer is attractive enough to entice Carpentier to this country and I am sure he realizes that a bout between himself and Greb would be the best available match for him in this country right now. I know that $150,000 is the least I can get him for. That's why I made him this proposition just now. I know, also, that $150,000 is as high as I'll go
for Carpentier's end. There's no use mincing matters on the proposition either way. If he dosen't want my offer, and if he can get somebody else to top my figures, then he's perfectly welcome to go
ahead. But I wish that he'd let me know one way or another, so that I can begin other negotiations if he is not interested in the bout."


6th article- June 11, 1922

Thanks for offer says Dechamps to Rickard

TEX RICKARD yesterday received an answer to two cablegrams he sent to Francois Descamps regarding a match between Georges Carpentier and Harry Greb at Boyle's Thirty Acres, Jersey City, sometime during the summer. Descamps's answer reads: "Thanks for handsome offer, which arrived too late. Am already signed up with Nilles In Paris In September and Beckett, London, October." Rickard had no comment to offer.

It's all here the offer, the rematch clause Carp signed shows Dempsey was on Carp's radar, Rickards sole decision to match Levinsky with Carp. Without any spins

 

As always thank you for posting, great find

 

Carp said he was already signed to fight Nilles and Beckett, his reasoning for not accepting Greb's offer. Problem is he wasnt. He wasnt signed to fight those guys. And posting an article (without apparently reading it) that Dempsey and Carpentier had signed to fight the following year is meaningless when the article expressly states that there was no venue, purse, promoter or anything else.

About me not reading the article. Unlike you I can accept both sides of an argument, good bad or indifferent.

Why do you insist on coming back with something you seem not to understand. First tell us WHY, he had even to consider the fight with Greb.

Déjà vu, remember the Dempsey contract, it also contained no site, date or purse but was sure to contain an out, or stipulations, certain time limit, if somebody lost, they agreed down. It’s simple, clear and to the point. And it’s clear termsunderstood and were agreed to, so what’s the problem?

Tell me o wise one, what’s wrong with that, that they had agreement? What’s the problem? Also what’s the problem with Deschamps saying he had signed to fight those guys?

Do yourself a favor cos your arguments are getting weaker and weaker go to the record keeper source you prefer, look up what Carp did in 1923, OOOoops! Carp fought those two guys one after the other

Its comical when you post this stuff and dont even think about it critically. When Dempsey and Carpentier signed to fight in 1921 it was a big deal with photographers there, champagne, the representatives of each guy, etc. In this case there was nothing but a press release?

Ya know prof I almost feel sorry for you, you really are out of your depth, you best wade in the kiddie pool, cos the more you post it is becoming clear you know nothing about professional boxing.

The difference my dear prof is that one was to announce a major fight, which turned out to be the 1st million dollar gate, guess what? They still do that now.

Now the press release, duh! They weren’t announcing a fight, they were announcing an agreement between managers.

Really? And what exactly happened to his second fight with Dempsey, and his 1922 fights with Nilles and Beckett?? Nothing. They never happened.

Ah, prof are you dense.

Here is a timeline in baby steps:

Signed agreement May, 1922

Had just fought that “WW”

Fought Siki in November ‘22

This loss also voided the agreement between Deschamps and Kearns

Fought Nilles May ‘23

Fought Beckett Oct ‘23

See prof how little you understand about professional boxing. Carp fought in May then again in Sept 1922 got ko’d didn’t fight again til May of the following yr 1923. Six months later he fought Nilles, five months after that he fought Beckett.

Six months down time after a ko loss is not unusual. Nothing unusual here, but of course you have to spin it in your own unique way, so spin away cos it don’t make sense.

So am I supposed to believe he had these fights, for less money, signed sealed and delivered and thats why he wasnt fighting his top contender.

Yea, why not? Let me ask you some serious questions, first you do know what an offers is? You do know that the recipient of the offer is under absolutely no obligation to accept,or to reply. That’s why it’s called an offer. They offer you something and you either accept it or not

(because again, you can go cash in if you want but as champion you eventually have to defend against your challengers or suffer the condemnation of history,

bahahahaha too funny, yeah from a “highly qualified “edgamacated” self proclaimed historian. Lol wont do it more like LMAO

or am I supposed to see it as what it was, Carpentier kicking the can down the road so he could defend his title against total no hopers like welterweight ted kid lewis and complete unknown battling siki.

Sometimes I think you cant be this stupid, but no, you seem to be the real deal.

I said it before so maybe you are “reading comprehension handicapped” so I will repeat it,

SIKI WAS UNKNOWN HERE NOT OVER THERE

The Nilles and Beckett fights, ask yourself, Was there a promoter for both fights? Was there a demand for the fights. Did Carp get paid? That’s all you need to know. Maybe you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, cos it’s not as complicated as you seem to think. Just about every world champion since the caveman has fought a gimme or two, so what’s your point? O, I know he didn’t fight Greb, that’s your only point. Lewis was a well known fighter in England and so was Carp. The WW you make fun of was an ATG-HOF fighter who campaigned as a WW, MW, and at LHW but you had to know that, maybe not.

even if you believe the story that Carpentier had rock solid contracts in place that prevented him fighting his most worthy challenger the fact is that Dempsey, Nilles, and Beckett were all heavyweights meaning that from the time that Carpentier "won" his title in 1920 until late 1923 after which he would have fought Jack Dempsey in this fictional fight they "signed" he would have defended his championship exactly one time in four years against a welterweight?

You have to be pretending you’re stupid right? Please for your sake, just be stupid cos what you post is beyond stupid.

You are imposing your present day stupidity on what happened, 90+yrs ago. Now that you mentioned contracts, what contract or agrement did Greb have? A simple question, what signed agreement did Rickard, Greb and Carp have? The answer none.

And Im supposed to give him a pass for that? LOL.

Um tell me again how your opinion means anything to anybody

And thats making the huge assumption that he is willing and capable of fighting again in 1923 after this fictional fight with Dempsey.

You keep insisting on showing how really clueless you are. Psst, let me give you a clue, it was in the agreement Deschamps and Kearns signed.

Furthermore, the guy is supposedly signed to fight Nilles and Beckett and cant possibly get out of those contracts to face Greb but somehow is able to turn around and fight Siki instead AND admit afterwards to trying to fix that fight in his favor?

And you say you’re a college grad and you wrote a book. Who said Carp had to get out of anything. Didn’t he fight both Nilles and Beckett in ’23. Please stop with the fixed fight, if Carp had gotten the victory then you could crow about it. It becomes moot when the fixer lost to the “fixee”

Look, it doesnt take a genius, which Dempsey and Perry clearly arent, to figure out that this guy was at worst a fraud, what they called a motion picture fighter back in that era, and at best was holding his title hostage and milking it while avoiding anyone who had a reasonable chance of taking it from him.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz!

 

The best case scenario you can say is that Carpentier may have been physically brave in signing to fight Dempsey for a rematch (which is ludicrous to believe given that he performed so poorly the first time around)

I love pointing out your comedy and stupidity, imposing present thoughts and attitudes on what happened, sigh! 90+yrs ago. What’s ludicrous is your insistence that you have a point that makes sense.

but that he knew his limitations and as such knew that if he lost his title, which was a real possibility against Greb, his marketability goes way down and he possibly loses a rematch with Dempsey.

Don’t worry about Carp’s marketability, his marketability was fine even after the Siki fight. As per the agreement Deschamps and Kearns made, Dempsey II was removed from the table after he lost.

This would explain why he tried to fix the Siki fight and why the Dempsey rematch never came off after he lost that fight and why he avoided Greb. But does that really show him any better light than Ive argued? No. It still means he was ducking Greb, fixing fights to maintain his marketability, and

So sayeth you, trying to revise history with present day thinking. It does not mean he was ducking Greb, his marketability was intact, he was the “A” side, Greb was the “B” side. An “A” side especially one that is as marketable as Carp was, gets offers all the time. Carp didn’t need Greb, Greb needed Carp.

You are so jealous lmao

basically just looking to cash in without really having a solid win record against top world class fighters to back his huge popularity.

When you have charisma and put fans in the seats and are in demand you could write your own ticket. Carp was all over Paris on billboards and print advertising so he was making good money outside the ring. The huge difference between Greb and Carp was that offers came to him and Greb had to chase them

But lets be realistic, a contract with no details, just like in the Wills case, is no contract at all. What is there to bind you to?

Let’s face it you are clueless and cant or wont accept the truth and instead make up your version of things. You say you have a copy of the Dempsey contract, and you cant understand it. Happy to say the Wills contract was valid and legally binding to both parties. The contract was negotiated the deal was accepted and both parties signed it. I’d like to see you tell a judge that the deal was unfair, they boxed us in. LOL

The Deschamps – Kearns agreement stipulated that the fight had to be before a certain date, that each could fight and if either one lost a fight the contract was null and void. Pretty simple, they each agreed to those terms, by signing. This legally bound them to these terms.

Nothing. For someone who always harps on about business thats a pretty basic fact to not understand. So no, Carpentier wasnt obligated to face Dempsey, he wasnt obligated to face Siki, he wasnt obligated to face Beckett, and he wasnt obligated to face Nilles.

You are right he wasn’t obligated to accept any of those fights, he had free will and he chose to fight those fights instead.

He COULD have taken the Greb fight if he had chosen to but since he hadnt shown any inclination over the last 3 years to fight Greb he certainly wasnt going to start now that Greb beat the two top guys in the division in the previous two months.

But the thing is he didn’t choose to fight he instead fought bums and palookas, like Gibbons and Tunney.

What do Gibbons and Tunney have in common? They both beat Greb lol

He may have been banking on a possible pie in the sky rematch with Dempsey but keep in mind that Dempsey was playing his own game. When he left for Europe that Spring he was talking about fighting Greb, when he got to Europe he was talking about fighting Carpentier (again, pointless), and when he returned he had other names on his mind. For a division supposedly devoid of worthy challengers Dempsey was always talking about guys like Brennan, Willard, Carpentier, Bartley Madden, etc.

Since you are an esteemed historian, you know that there were valid reasons things happen and why they didn’t, you seem to choose your fictional version that everyone ran and was scared to fight a feather dusting 5’8 MW.

While Wills loomed in the background, always waiting.

Yes and Wills and manager helped their cause by making dumb moves that annoyed people

1919-1922 Dempsey and Wills fight not happening for obvious reasons

1923- Dempsey chose to fight two fights where he made mere peanuts, 700+k

1924- The 1924 version of Wills left a whole lot to be desired

1925-Wills fought a small cr and a guy who in his last 10 fight before he fought Wills went 2 win’s, 6 losses and 2 draws

1926- The end of the road

1927- all over but the crying

At no point was Wills thought of as Dempsey’s destroyer the best that was said, was he would give Dempsey a good fight.
Greb, fergetaboutit, too small, you made a point of saying the WW that Carp fought was too small, for LHW Carp. Bump it both sides MW-HW still too small







The fact is that neither Dempsey nor Carpentier were over eager to face their best challengers. The difference was that Carpentier wasnt even good enough to extend his reign over the bums he kept choosing to fight while Dempsey could. You keep touting his smart business acumen but you yourself have laid out the perfect example of a complete bonehead play by the guy which highlights his greed, professional cowardice, and hubris.

More onesided garbage by the garbageman.

But like I said, ultimately he paid the price. He lost any hope of ever having a rematch. He lost the second highest purse of his career. He lost a good chunk of his reputation. And he lost his title. You may think Im hard on him but he did more to himself with his stupidity and greed than I could ever do with my pen. All I have to do is write about it. The people can decide for themselves. Im confident most will come to the same conclusion I have.

Let me ask you a very simple question that just might illustrate your point.

Gibbons at that time fought Greb, how much was Gibbons purse?

Gibbons fought Carp, how much was his purse?

You know, when Gibbons fought Carp how many times his Greb purse was it? You see Carp lost nothing when he lost he just keep going on fighting every 4-5 months except after the Siki fight where he took 6months off. Didn’t hurt Carp at all.