175 lb 1st Round-Harold Johnson vs Matthew Saad Muhammed

Flea Man · Sep 6, 2009

teeto said: ↑

I was thinking about Tunney-Spinks recently actually, i'll wait for te thread.
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I can see it being the most controversial, regardless of which way it swings, both fighters have their ardent supporters, people will argue very Spinks has the power to hurt Tunney, people will argue over Tunney's ability to outbox Spinks etc etc

More on that later :good

The Funny Man 7 · Sep 6, 2009

Great matchup and its a shame that one of these guys have to lose because both are outstanding. I think Saad catch Johnson with a strong right hand in the middle of a wicked exchange and follows up with a prolonged barrage of power punches, finishing the job 30 seconds before the bell.

Saad by clean ten count in round 9.

Flea Man · Sep 6, 2009

The Funny Man 7 said: ↑

Great matchup and its a shame that one of these guys have to lose because both are outstanding. I think Saad catch Johnson with a strong right hand in the middle of a wicked exchange and follows up with a prolonged barrage of power punches, finishing the job 30 seconds before the bell.

Saad by clean ten count in round 9.
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It IS a shame. There are several first-round matchups like this, but I guess the winner will have proven his worth in a hypothetical sense

Maybe someone wins it by getting a fairly easy draw (the 2nd rnd, quarter-finals and semis will also be drawn on random) I guess it all provides healthy debate:good

Raging B(_)LL · Sep 6, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

As always, good post:good
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Thanks pal.

Johnson had a great jab, employed good lateral movement and was strong on the inside (could tie up well and throw deceptively fast combinations) These things spell disaster for Saad, as they sound a good way to negate his iron chin and late rounds workrate; i.e DON'T TRY AND STOP HIM-BOX HIM!
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I doubt Harold would attempt to tie up Saad inside whenever he got too close, Matt wasn`t the type of guy who would let himself get tied up, he would fight and wrestle his way out of a clinch more often than not. Harold would be best served to avoid letting Matt get close enough to unload his offence, keep fighting off the backfoot and jab, jab and jab some more to not allow Matt to get set would be the key. However Matt didn`t think twice about swapping leather while his opponent was busy throwing something at him, Matt knew he could take the punishment and would look to fire back while he was shipping punishment himself.

However, as others have pointed out, Johnson could be hurt. Although the only time I've seen him stopped is against Archie Moore (quite late on in his career by the looks of it) I do not believe Saad had the power of Moore. A big puncher yes, but not in the same league as Moore, who I hold in the highest regard in that respect.
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While you may be right in that Matt probably didn`t hit quite as hard as ol` Archie did, he nevertheless wasn`t too far behind imo as a puncher at least as a lightheavyweight. Matt could knock just about any fighter straight back to kindergarten if he landed his best, hardest punches, and this would include Archie himself too for that matter had they met. Matt definately hit hard enough to flatten Harold, and if he catches him flush I reckon he would KO him outright if not render him so helpless after beating the count that the ref would have to stop it regardless.

Also, when you consider Johnson took Satterfields best, he was hardly 'china chinned' (excuse the expression)
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Well, Harold didn`t quite take Satterfield`s best shots, he looked to avoid them as much as possible. sure, he got hit some and even got decked in their first bout I believe it was but he never ate a flush punch from Bob because if he had he woulda gotten himself stretched for the count. Harold himself admitted that his chin wasn`t the sturdiest around, and this was one reason given by him as to why he was so proficient defensively. Add in the fact that he often fought bigger, harder hitting opponents than himself and its no wonder he became such a good and skillfull ring technician and defensive specialist.

So it's down to whether Saad can rally late? Nope, not IMO, as he wins a cagey first few rounds by boxing.
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This is a possibility, however since Matt so often got off to a slow start I would think Harold would nick the early rounds more often than not.

Johnson re-adjusts and starts tagging Saad with counters from angles created by good movement. Then the typical tumultuous middle rounds start for Saad, and Johnson starts hitting him hard. However, I don't believe Johnson was a 'massive' puncher and Saad is very sturdy, so I say he survives, and makes his late round surge around the tenth. A few close rounds in a close fight, the final 3 could've went either way but Saad wins an unlikely decision 7-5.

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Good call, it may well play out like this, either way what counts is that you give my man Saad the verdict.

:good
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My2Sense · Sep 6, 2009

red cobra said: ↑

In these hypothetical matches we always have, which this forum thrives on, isn't it a given that we're matching these guys at their best..and not some out of shape, unfocused, halfassed version of these fighters?
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So are you saying Johnson was "out of shape, unfocused" etc. etc. every time he was KO'd?

Flea Man · Sep 6, 2009

Raging B(_)LL said: ↑

fleaman said: ↑

Thanks pal.

I doubt Harold would attempt to tie up Saad inside whenever he got too close, Matt wasn`t the type of guy who would let himself get tied up, he would fight and wrestle his way out of a clinch more often than not. Harold would be best served to avoid letting Matt get close enough to unload his offence, keep fighting off the backfoot and jab, jab and jab some more to not allow Matt to get set would be the key. However Matt didn`t think twice about swapping leather while his opponent was busy throwing something at him, Matt knew he could take the punishment and would look to fire back while he was shipping punishment himself.

While you may be right in that Matt probably didn`t hit quite as hard as ol` Archie did, he nevertheless wasn`t too far behind imo as a puncher at least as a lightheavyweight. Matt could knock just about any fighter straight back to kindergarten if he landed his best, hardest punches, and this would include Archie himself too for that matter had they met. Matt definately hit hard enough to flatten Harold, and if he catches him flush I reckon he would KO him outright if not render him so helpless after beating the count that the ref would have to stop it regardless.

Well, Harold didn`t quite take Satterfield`s best shots, he looked to avoid them as much as possible. sure, he got hit some and even got decked in their first bout I believe it was but he never ate a flush punch from Bob because if he had he woulda gotten himself stretched for the count. Harold himself admitted that his chin wasn`t the sturdiest around, and this was one reason given by him as to why he was so proficient defensively. Add in the fact that he often fought bigger, harder hitting opponents than himself and its no wonder he became such a good and skillfull ring technician and defensive specialist.

This is a possibility, however since Matt so often got off to a slow start I would think Harold would nick the early rounds more often than not.

Good call, it may well play out like this, either way what counts is that you give my man Saad the verdict.

:good
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Although Saad did get off to a slow start, he always seemed to attempt to 'box' more. With his speed and Johnson's backfoot work I'm giving Saad the benefit of the doubt and say that, as the aggressor he catches the judges eye and wins the round.

I think either outcome is feasible, especially as Johnson has proven (as in the Satterfield fight that you explained very well) he can 'tame' the bull.

However, having re-watched the Conteh fight today, I feel that over 15 rounds Saad showed he could get to someone who employed good movement and great upper body/head movement. Granted Johnson would be more defensive than Conteh, who was happy to stand and trade more than necessary IMO. But that's what Saad brings to the table, even when he seems to be at the right range for you, he'll come jumping in with that lovely wide left hook in order to bring more devastating shots from underneath with the uppercuts and of course with his heavy straight right.

At first I thought, poor Franklin, he's had a bad draw, as he's a particular favourite of mine. However, he definitely has a live shout here. More votes are to be expected though, seems like Johnson might progress yet.
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WhataRock · Sep 6, 2009

My2Sense said: ↑

So are you saying Johnson was "out of shape, unfocused" etc. etc. every time he was KO'd?
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As a Duran fan...thats my favorite excuse aswell.

red cobra · Sep 7, 2009

My2Sense said: ↑

So are you saying Johnson was "out of shape, unfocused" etc. etc. every time he was KO'd?
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Not exactly. I don't think there ever was a time when the physical specimen Johnson was ever really "out of shape", but he could have been not focused as well as he could have been in his losses, and it could have been that he just got beaten by the better man on a given occasion on a particular night despite his efforts (Moore-1954), but remember, you can always, in these "what if" matches, always snatch that one particulkar occasion to justify any given guy you happen to like to catch him like, say Moore did in '54. I could take the Wilfred Benitez of the Davey Moore fight and have him get slaughtered in a similar way by an Anthony Mundine, but what the hell would that accomplish? We're supposed to be matching two guys at their virtual best against each other, ot what;s the point?

mcvey · Sep 7, 2009

AlFrancis said: ↑

Although an underrated boxer in his own right Saad is outboxed in this one but keeps coming forward. In desperation he pours it on in the last 2 rounds but Johnson is too skilful to be drawn into a war. I think Saad would have made this closer over 15 but at 12 he is disadvantaged. From the 3rd round onwards evey round is closely fought and the scorecards don't reflect the story of the fight. Johnson 9-3.
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That's about my take on it , early in his career Saad was a good technical boxer,but abandoned that style for wars of attrition ,which made him a firm fans favourite and certainly one of mine. :good

Mr Butt · Sep 8, 2009

bump

Flea Man · Sep 8, 2009

Cheers for bumping these Mr Butt, still a few 'regulars' that haven't voiced their opinions, and this one is still kinda' close :good

will post up some more this evening, including the much anticipated (by me at least) Tunney vs Spinks :good

DFW · Sep 8, 2009

Harold Johnson by decision. Having watched both of these champions Harold just has too many tools for Saad to deal with.

Rock0052 · Sep 8, 2009

I like Johnson by decision; in a 15 round scenario I'd seriously entertain the idea of Saad grinding him down, but in 12, I think Johnson would win on points.

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