[1905] Articles debunking the Marvin Hart-Jack Johnson revisionism

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, Mar 25, 2021.


  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I have a very comprehensive round-by-round write-up that contradicts that narrative. Johnson battered him throughout the fight, including the later rounds.

    And there's some question about whether it was appropriate to score the fight "on aggression" alone when it was such a one-sided mismatch of a fight (and I think it's been disputed whether he actually made that completely clear before the fight).
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Let's not oversell Johnson's performance. No one not under his pay thought he looked like a world beater and he shut it down over the second half of the fight. And let's not pretend that Hart landed nothing. I have several accounts saying he almost knocked Johnson down in the 11th. And according to reports, the consensus around the ring was that neither fighter would stand a chance against Jeffries.
     
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  3. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    And for all the damage supposedly done to Hart, he had no marks on his face 4 days later in St. Louis.
     
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  4. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Here's the round by round description of Johnson shutting down over the second half of the fight:

    “Jack Johnson is Whipped by Hart,” Union Leader, March 31, 1905


    Round 14—Johnson kept jabbing the bleeding face of the Kentuckian, alternating with hard left uppercuts but Hart seemed to have no limit to his endurance and ability to take punishment.

    Round 15—Hart ran into half a dozen short upper cuts and was twice carried to the ropes but came back and fought every minute when his opponent gave him a chance. It seemed hardly possible that any man could stand up under the perfect rain of short jolts which Johnson showered with such precision. Hart’s face was badly swollen and between the rounds his seconds were kept busy massaging it.

    Round 16—This round was like the four preceding ones. Johnson kept stabbing Hart’s rapidly closing left eye. Both men were very tired at the end of this period.

    Johnson did some clever blocking and they kept at it at close quarters for a full minute; quick as a flash Hart stepped back and drove a left straight to Johnson’s jaw and the big colored man’s head was rocking.

    Round 17—Hart battled every minute of the way but was terribly punished. He received a terrible drubbing. Johnson never fought so hard in his life. He had to stall all of Hart’s rushes. In all Frisco’s experience the sporting men never saw a gamer man than the Kentuckian.

    Round 18—Johnson swung on his opponent but nothing daunted Hart—kept boring in. His face now looked like a beefsteak, the left side being half as large again as the other but he fought and fought. Hart half the time could not have seen Johnson but the instinct to fight never left him. It was really pitiful to see such a game fellow continue to fight under such a terrible onslaught as that which Johnson made upon his less clever opponent.

    Round 19—Hart rushed as usual never giving Johnson a chance to breathe. Hart was wild with his leads, Johnson landing straight left on face and right to Hart’s sore jaw as he came in. Hart came back with right to head and light left to body. Hart actually feinted, tried to spar away but the colored man shook him up again with rights and lefts to the head and he stopped trying to spar. Hart landed a right to the body followed with a hard right swing to the colored man’s head and the crowd yelled. Hart’s gameness had won the crowd. At the end of the round there were loud cries for Hart.

    Round 20—They rushed together but Hard landed on Johnson’s head and they mixed it freely. The Kentuckian was bleeding profusely from his nose and mouth but he kept leading and Johnson’s hard lefts to the face could not stop him. Johnson tried to stand away but Hart kept boring away, but they kept standing together. Referee Greggains was powerless to break them. Hart fought like a demon and never broke ground for a second. Hart landed a straight right to jaw. They clinched and went to the ropes. They fought and fought and nobody could count the blows. Hart was given the decision.
     
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Yes. I have this. And I have different accounts. Pollack gives an evenhanded account using a plethora of sources. The summation was that Johnson probably did the better work by modern standards, and those weren't the standards of the day, and that he took his foot off the pedal enough to sow some doubt.

    Remember, a large part of the criteria back then was the concept of giving ground and leading.
     
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  6. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Pollack's summation was that Johnson "probably" did better work by modern standards? Johnson most certainly did far better work by modern standards, and Hart was singularly unimpressive by modern standards—all of that seems beyond dispute.

    I've seen a ton of articles and writeups, and I just haven't seen much of a basis for the theory that Johnson "letting up late" put the fight back into question such that Hart might have legitimately eked it out. It seems pretty clear that Hart was the ineffective aggressor all night and that he only wins if aggression and gameness were Greggains' sole criteria.

    I'll have to pick up Pollack's book some time to see which sources he uses and what inferences he draws from them.
     
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  7. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    If aggression was the sole criteria then Holmes lost to Cobb by there system.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I typed these up for another thread, I selected the sections as best as I could to summerise each article I found.

    The Call (San Francisco)- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)

    Marvin Hart matched his gameness against the cleverness of Jack Johnson in Woodward's Pavillion last night, and at the end of twenty rounds of fierce fighting Referee Alex Greggains gave an entirely just decision in favor of Hart. He was the aggressor throughout, and there was never an instant that he was not trying in an awkward style to land on the elusive negro.

    San Francisco Chronicle- 1905 Mar 29 (page 8)
    To put the thing briefly the way it appeared to a man who had not interest one way or the other—only a desire to see fair play and to have the better fighter win—on the score of aggressiveness Hart was entitled to the verdict. On any other score Johnson should have been the favored one. This is a thing that will be argued on the street corners for days

    The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
    PLUCK AND AWKWARDNESS BETTER THAN A MIXTURE OF CLEVERNESS AND COWARDICE
    . . .
    BY W. W. NAUGHTON
    . . .
    It would be ridiculous to say that Hart is a better ringster than Johnson. If Johnson were only as stout hearted as the man from Louisville the chances are the negro would dispose of his opponent of last night in ten rounds.
    Johnson did his best work with a straight left. He also bruised the side of Hart's face with right crosses. Hart, although anything but a neat boxer, had an awkwardly clever way of stopping Johnson's uppercuts.
    Hart scored his biggest success with a heart punch. He reached Johnson's ribs with this blow a number of times in every round. He also clouted Johnson on temple and jaw with right swings.

    The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
    By Jabez White.
    Hart was the aggressor all the way and the referee could do nothing but give him all the glory. The big fellows clinch too much, something you very seldom see across the pond.

    Oakland Tribune- 1905 Mar 29 (page 6)
    Clearly showing himself strong on point, Johnson lack the grit and aggressiveness of Hart and this lost him the fight, for previous to entering the ring the big fellow had been warned by Referee Greggains that should the battle go the full twenty round he would give the verdict to fighter who was the most aggressive—in other made the fight.
    And on this line Hart fully earned the long end of the purse. He was after the black man at all times except when sent back by the colored champion's hooks and jabs. Had the decision been given on points scored by clean hitting, blocking and punishment administered, then Johnson would have won by a country mile.
     
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  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Without having seen the fight yourself, why are you so certain of anything ?
     
  10. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    If I had to bet the house, I’d say Johnson deserved that fight, especially by modern standards.

    But we really can’t know for certain.
     
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  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    All of that is plausible.

    Hart seems to have been a pressure fighter, so it is just possible that he was the Ken Norton figure of that era.

    Not by any means the best heavyweight of the era, but a stylistic foil for the man who was.

    While Hart was a bit of a flash in the pan, I think that he was perhaps a little bit better than given credit for today.
     
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  12. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Certain that Johnson dominated if judged by modern standards? Wouldn’t bet my life or life savings on it but the available evidence, considered in light of what we know about the fighters and the context surrounding the fight, makes it pretty obvious.
     
  13. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    https://www.amazon.com/Black-Man-vs...black+man+vs.+the+world&qid=1616776895&sr=8-1

    Fight is thoroughly analyzed with multiple local sources and those who attended the fight.
    The final analysis is that most fair-minded reporters thought Johnson won clearly; or at least should have received no worse than a draw. Some are more vociferous/adamant than others, and yes, there were some who supported the decision, or at least explained/justified it. But those who disagreed with it thought racial animus/bias as well as style bias was at work, as well as potential economic/racial incentives. For the record though, the crowd applauded the decision. There may have been more than meets the eye to this one too, as the book addresses. I don't want to give too much away.
     
  14. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    The next lines in that article are also good:

    "After the contest, Johnson hardly showed a mark, but Hart's face was puffed out like a soiled pumpkin from the effects of wicked stabs and hooks landed cleanly by the negro.
     
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  15. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    In terms of if the decision was racially motivated, it's pretty hard to tell motivations, but I guess you could look at how Alex refereed other fights, and see if he did the same.

    Another issue is if it was for sure his decision to score on aggression or if he was asked to do so.