1915 Jack Johnson Vs. 1927 Jack Dempsey

1915 Johnson was 230 pounds but still had lightning fast hands, was good defensively, the best clincher ever, and still good enough to be ahead on points over 20 rounds against a guy who was 6’6” 235 in the best shape of his life and never down before.

Dempsey still could punch in spurts, had some timing left, even against a prime lightning fast cutie in Tunney. But he seemed to be a far more diminished version of himself than Johnson was. Johnson would not move as much as Tunney, throw as many, or set as brisk a pace, but he was as fast, clinched as well, and was very efficient.

Edge to Johnson by decision, but of course if Dempsey nailed him right there always was a chance he could go good night. Johnson’s minimalist footwork might have given Dempsey more opportunities to hit him, but then Johnson probably would have done more subtle slide backs, quick counter, and clinching. Johnson would not have landed as many as Tunney, but throwing less might have given Dempsey less openings. Certainly could have been interesting.

 

Good post, but you said 170 and the listed weight I provided a year later at 185 does not agree with that. Besides Choynski was the smaller man ( weights provided the year before for Choynski at 162 ) yet he knocked Johnson out cold in less the three rounds. Johnson said he was ringing the next day. Pollack can commit about Johnson's weight for the fight, I am just listing the facts and evidence.

Anyway I agree with you that 205 was not fat for Johnson and pretty much dismiss some peoples opinion that has was fat / out if shape for O'brien and Ketchel despite the fact the he was out boxed by one man according to primary sources and floored by another. Excuses I say.

I also agree with you that Johnson was in good shape for Jeffries, at his sharpest in his prime.

 

Everything I've read about the Willard-Dempsey bout has Dempsey 190 plus or minus 3 pounds. No way was he 180.

 

Janelle Monea, currently starring in Knives Out: Glass Onion with Daniel Craig. Streaming and in theaters. Movies sucks; she's Magnificent.

 

Thanks mate, much appreciated. Too bad about the movie - was looking forward to it - I’ll still watch - and Ms Monea has given me another reason to give it a shot.

 

Well Willard did not have much experience and was no spring chicken either at 33. Was he qualified and did he earn this match? Well, he lost to Gun Boat Smith and failed to beat Luther McCarty before. IMO both would have made better title oppenents. Numerous others fights such as a loss to Tom McMahon, draws, and early quit job vs Cox leave his resume leading up his fight with Johnson leaving his resume full of question marks.

The fight was 45 rounds explaining Willard's lack of urgency in it. In the filmed rounds I have seen past 10 round are even and by 20 rounds take control to the fight. In round 25 he nearly floors Johnson with a body shot. Have you seen it?

 

But the weight for Gardner was ONE YEAR later as you stated and know. I’ve given you the approx weights for Johnson vs Choy, Stift and Everett - around 170 lbs - and Choy was the same weight as Johnson when they fought - imo, Johnson worse off for being so underweight.

If you’re undernourished and get an influx of food, your weight can shoot up to its natural potential. After the Gardner fight, Johnson was back down to 180 lb for his next bout.

Remember, Johnson was 194 lb in 1908, then 205 1/2 in 1909 and then reportedly 208 lb in 1910. That’s 14 lbs in just less than 1 1/2 years duration - the poundage gained and duration involved little different from Choy to Gardner.

 

Due respect but of course Adam has seen it..all.

Willard didn’t fight to the duration. The duration was made for him - 45 rounds - to outlast Johnson, which is exactly how it went down.

Many believe (and Adam can correct me) that Johnson was either leading or it was at least even by round 20. When he still had energy, Johnson was easily outboxing and belting Willard around - though past his prime it’s still a valuable study on Johnson and his abilities.

Unless they could stop big Jess, with 45 round limit, he would’ve outlasted a number of better skilled HWs - that 37 yo Johnson made it through to round 26 was quite amazing.

I’m not going to overrate Big Jess’ skills but he could be a tad underrated imo. Suffice to say, if Dempsey didn’t have the punch to severely impair Willard as he actually did, there was a good chance that Jess would’ve outlast him also - with Jack going by the wayside somewhat earlier than round 26.

 

Due respect but of course Adam has seen it..all.

Willard didn’t fight to the duration. The duration was made for him - 45 rounds - to outlast Johnson, which is exactly how it went down.

Many believe (and Adam can correct me) that Johnson was either leading or it was at least even by round 20. When he still had energy, Johnson was easily outboxing and belting Willard around - though past his prime it’s still a valuable study on Johnson and his abilities.

Unless they could stop big Jess, with 45 round limit, he would’ve outlasted a number of better skilled HWs - that 37 yo Johnson made it through to round 26 was quite amazing.

I’m not going to overrate Big Jess’ skills but he could be a tad underrated imo. Suffice to say, if Dempsey didn’t have the punch to severely impair Willard as he actually did, there was a good chance Jess would outlast him also - with Jack going by the wayside somewhat earlier than round 26.

 

What he has and has not seen he can clarify and I'm not sure if he watched round 25 of the fight when the book was written. Johsson says he was sure he could go 20 rounds vs Frank Moran, and fight happen before Willard.

 

Where can I see you approximate weight go Johnson for the Joe Choy fight? Sources that say he was 170? As stated he was 185 a year later. Let's not act like Johnson was traveling by train and hobo. The fight took place is his home town! It was Choynski who ride the rails.

 

He says it in his own biography.

 

I think the whole "longer it went more to favor Johnson" thinking is a bit overstated. Johnson lasted that long against Willard primarily because Willard was such an inept boxer and the pace they fought at was glacial, per Johnson's choosing. If Dempsey forces the pace Johnson tires earlier. My thought is that Dempsey catches the hogfat Johnson within eight and finishes him.

 

Then he lied. There were multiple witnesses who were present at the sparring sessions the weeks of the fight who estimated (repeat, estimated as there was no official weigh in) that Dempsey weighed in excess of 190. How could he say he was 180 when there were no weighins and no one else corroborates his story? He weighed 185 and above for several years before the Willard fight, never going below that level.

 

So your info is eye balling? That’s what’s going against the man’s word? I can eye ball too, plenty of photos to choose from.

A man can go down in weight, a few pounds? why is that so inconceivable? Most likely he did it to be lighter on his feet, more nimble against such a big guy.

Perhaps he dried out like other old time heavies to get down to 180lbs? Regardless, the man’s own word has more authority then some people looking him up and down.