1915 Jack Johnson Vs. 1927 Jack Dempsey

Again, of course Adam has seen all the available footage but sure, Adam can tell you that himself if he chooses to.

Adam is a busy man - and we don’t want to interrupt and delay his completion of Dempsey part 2. - smile to Adam if he reads this.

Do you have Adam’s terrific books on Johnson? If so, start there - the Willard fight is described.

Johnson DID go 20 rounds vs Frank Moran and he WON the decision. Please, offer a point that makes sense.

 

The weights, based on Johnson’s recorded weights otherwise in and around the same time, are estimated in Adam’s book - as I’ve already told you.

You keep swinging on a weight recorded ONE YEAR LATER. That is illogical and I JUST illustrated to you in my last post how Johnson’s weight increased similarly from 1908 - 1909/1910.

Please explain why you’re not getting theses simple points and logic in support?

In April 1900, boxrec lists Johnson as having weighed 168 lb for Jim McCormick - by your “logic” whatever Johnson weighed for Choynski should’ve been comparable to what he weighed 1 year prior.

Believe me, that is EXACTLY the logic you’re trying to use when citing Johnson’s weight for the Gardner fight with the suggestion that Jack couldn’t have been much lighter than that (vs Choynski) one year prior.

Who’s trying to “make out” what? You’ve been provided Johnson’s early career weights - which were reflective of a clearly underfed fighter. Johnson’s natural frame vs 168 lbs - I mean, c’mon, join the obvious dots.

You SIMPLY don’t like the FACT that due to Socio/Economic effects, Johnson was often not ideally prepared or conditioned for many of his early fights - since the FACTS of Johnson’s early career weights support this, you’re trying to change the FACTS re Johnson weights - facts that you are clearly not knowledgeable about.

But tell me again that you have it on IRON CLAD authority that Jeffries offered Johnson a private fight (like that would matter anyway) but STILL FAIL to produce your primary source and time frame for when that claim was made.

Still waiting on that but here you are now, baselessly contesting Johnson’s early career weights - simply because the FACTS and logically conclusions don’t suit you.

 

You are not saying facts, Adam can clarify what he has and has not seen. Yes Johnson did go 20 rounds vs Moran. He says in print he was not sure if he could go this distance! Please read some. I listed Johnson weights, they are not baseless and you claim. See when you ask I back it up with something you can read, when I ask you often offer nothing and write. Johnson was 170 pounds we he listed weight shows 185 a year later. Prove it.

 

Well Jack Johnson has a tough time with Journeyman Jim McCormick!

The Galveston Daily News reported that McCormick finished the fight with a closed left eye and a swollen left cheek, while Johnson had spit a quantity of blood.

In 1902 Johnson was 185 pounds. So the truth is in 1901 for Choynksi he was likely somewhere in between 168-185. Yet you claim 170? That's far fetched.

Sure--Johnson you are a rabid fan of would beat Jeffries for 1899-1905. You think so? Why doubt it. Ignoring him looses and draws of the times for Johnson, you do.

 

I have stated facts. That’s what’s killing you.

Johnson went 20 rounds against Moran - who cares if he did say or didn’t say that he thought he couldn’t go 20 rounds? (note - YET AGAIN, no prime source provided by you for this new claim).

You don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. Lol. You chimed in when I correctly stated that the 45 round limit was set to suit Jess. It’s OBVIOUS - and if Johnson said he didn’t know if he even go 20 rounds - then that should even more strongly HAMMER home the point that the 45 round limit was set for slowing moving, one gear Jess not Johnson.

Jess DOESN’T work any harder or faster over 12,15 or 20 rounds. He had one speed. And why would you ONLY entertain Jess working faster over a shorter route while not allowing Johnson to do same? There is simply no logic in your line of thinking.

You really DON’T understand preset limits and the ramification on fighters in so far as how they strategise and pace themselves to the preset limit.

Facts- Johnson went 20 rounds and defeated Moran. Johnson went almost 6 full rounds longer vs Willard. At the 20 round mark vs Willard, Johnson would’ve won the decision - at the very worst perhaps he might’ve received a draw. Do you get it now? - Jess needed the 20 round plus limit for Johnson to tire out.

But here’s you fixated on claiming that Johnson allegedly suggested he didn’t think he could go 20 rounds vs Moran (you lean heavily on such lightweight, unsubstantiated stuff).

Be that quote true or not - what’s the point you’re trying to make? In all seriousness, and I repeat: you don’t even know what your point is.

You didn’t list weights, you gave ONE weight 185 lb, vs Gardner ONE YEAR AFTER the Choynski fight.

Less than ONE and a HALF YEARS AFTER beating Burns, Johnson put on another 14 lbs again (194 lbs to 208).

In April 1900, Boxrec records Johnson’s weight to have been a MERE 168 lbs vs McCormick. - . Apparently you can’t read - it’s the RIGHT THERE on Boxrec.

Sorry, but you’re just not getting the most simple facts and logic - it’s totally above you.

Btw, how’s that source going for the alleged cellar fight - still got NOTHING?

It’s quite glaring that you still haven’t come to the party on that - let’s not allow facts get in the way of a good “story”, eh?

 

Oh gee, you’re catching up with what’s ALREADY been told to you - did you need time to work out another implausible way to extricate yourself from the facts ALREADY provided to you?

No need to supply the fight description - I already knew it.

Did you notice also that Johnson weighed only 178 lbs vs McVey by Feb 1903? - of course you didn’t.

I said Johnson was in and around 170 lbs as at the Choynski fight - logic dictates that to be a more than fair estimate.

No, a “rabid” fan is one who desperately relies on anecdotal claims re cellar fights, references fights that don’t even exist on Jeffries’ record (vs Martin), claim fights as defences that weren’t defences (vs Griffin and Johnson).

Johnson BEATS Jeffries 1902-1905 - and Johnson smashing Jeffries brother in 1902 (After the fight, Johnson saying to Jeffries DIRECTLY he could do same to Jeff ) wasn’t even enough to cause Jeff to man up and get in the ring to fight Johnson.

Who included the years 1899-1901 for Johnson beating Jeffries? I didn’t. Answer the question - and that answer should be that you INVENTED the claim (viz: straw man). You disagree? Then, AGAIN, answer the simple question.

If someone told you that Jeffries could leap tall buildings in a single bound, you’d absolutely buy it, lock, stock and barrel.

Lol, it’s quite sad really. Why not digress YET again into the fictitious offering of a fight in a cellar - resorting to such fairy tales really proves how little you have in the way of relevant facts to defend Jeffries.

For the record: Jeffries emphatically drew the colour line. His title record - 8 defences, 0 black challengers faced. Read that right - ZERO.

Jeffries came back and was DESTROYED by the very man (who had now become Champion) who Jeffries strenuously and unjustifiably AVOIDED during his own title reign - period in question - 1902 -1905.

Truth hurts, I guess.

 

Here is one source:

Johnson’s Tribute to Moran.

Johnson after the match pointed out that no champion of his age ever defended the title and won. Johnson appeared little the worse for the battle. “I thought I couldn’t last twenty rounds. Well, didn’t I?” he said. “I am satisfied.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jun/29/jack-johnson-beats-frank-moran-boxing-match-paris-1914[/url]


Perhaps I should wait until you baeless claims and denials first, only to show you the links later. This did not take long and if you check there are threads in this form about Johnson vs Moran.

Once again

In 1902 Johnson was 185 pounds. So the truth is in 1901 for Choynksi he was likely somewhere in between 168-185. Yet you claim 170? That's far fetched. Both are right there on box rec, Be factual.

There are links to the offered Jeffries vs. Johnson private cellar fight told by historians. How about you showing me if never happened. Ah that's right you have no sources. I'm asking you for the links. When I ask you for links to support your clams, why don't you provide them?

Sure--Johnson who you are a rabid fan of would beat Jeffries from 1899-1905. You think so? I think you are ignoring him multiple looses and draws of the times Johnson has. Make you case for the alleged 170 pound man in 1901 if you can. I'll read it. That is an open challenge for you by the way.

 

I'll give you credit for providing a source for the quote of Johnson stating that he thought he couldn't last 20 rounds when he fought Moran.

But, AGAIN, what EXACTLY is your point in providing that quote? What does it mean, what do YOU think it proves? Facts are, Johnson did last 20 rounds and he was clearly playing up on the angle that he'd done little in recent years (read: not fit) - therefore, Johnson was basically saying "How amazing am I to have boxed 20 rounds and successfully defended my title at my age". Then Johnson boxed another 20 + rounds when he fought Willard. So, AGAIN, what the point of providing this quote?

You said "

This content is protected

"

I provided a weight, "about" 170 lbs, that ACTUALLY falls into the range you JUST said was likely - then you state that weight to be "far-fecthed".

Dude, YOU are not making any sense throughout this discussion. I've ALREADY stated WHY Johnson's weight is reasonably estimated to have been somewhere around the 170 lb mark when he fought Choynksi - and Choynski's weight was estimated to be about the same. I'm not here to give remedial lessons on simple reading/comprehension.

You're swinging disproportionately on a weight recorded 1 1/2 years AFTER the Choynksi fight - show some logic. Even then, in his first fight vs McVey in 1903, Johnson was recorded as 178 lbs (7 lbs lighter than for the earlier Gardner fight). Seriously man, this stuff is so above and beyond you it's not funny.

SO, you STILL can't produce a primary source for the alleged invitation for a private cellar fight. YOUR claim - yours to prove. The ONUS has always been on you to prove your claim. No one else. How VERY EMBARRASSING for you that, despite repeated requests, you STILL haven't produced a thing. Equally as bad, IF not worse, is the FACT that it doesn't mean a thing any which way. You suggest that I should disprove your own unproven claim? Haha. Hello Santa! He's real - prove me wrong. Your inability to understand that YOU are required to prove the claim is...very worrisome to say the least.

If nothing else, your pointless accent on the alleged offer to fight privately does tell me, however, how little you have to support your arguments re actual title defences and how DESPERATE you are to try and defend Jeffries' position, even "reaching" for an alleged "private offer" that would be deemed a COWARDLY invitation, even if it was true.

Keep IGNORING Johnson's own DIRECT, in the ring challenge - stating he could "lick" Jeffries all the way back in 1902 - AFTER he kicked the a** of Jeff's brother. I'll just keep repeating it. What say you re Jeff's TOTAL inaction at that time? Don't try and bs and say it was due to lack of interest - according to you, Jeffries was allegedly willing to fight for nix in a cellar - Lol.

I've told you before, imo, Jeffries was likely the ONE and ONLY source/claimant re the private fight, a "tale" related several years AFTER his career had finished, a fabrication in an attempt to "save face" for not defending against Johnson - (you know, this is the same Jeff that claimed he was drugged just prior to the Johnson fight, that Johnson was knocked down and lost to Langford and that Johnson was a "second rater" - yes, Jeff was man to be believed, without question, lol).

 

@ Puggy

Just as I thought no links. How much money was up for that Johnson vs Jeffries fight in 1899-1905? Links again! What's that? You have none just like they weight claim of 170 Pounds for Johnson is 1901? You have no sources. Choynski was the smaller man anyway.

I could show you a news article that felt out sys Jeffries would consider Johnson as a possible title opponent before Johnson lost to Hart in 1905 ( Notice I present links ) which kind of sinks your theory. Besides Jeffries defended his lineal title in 1910 vs Johnson. So much for you facts that he would not fight him. There wasn't a purse close to the Reno one. I am saying you can not even find one purse secured in the amount of what Jeffries was reeicving as champion form 1899-1904. Prove it! Find one as I said.

I have links and news article that tell the tale of the cellar fight offer. You don't have anything to prove otherwise!

In fact you reject Jeffries reported fights with Martian, Childs and Cotton which have links too and appear in older versions of ring record books. How is that for a source

All fighter ask for fights, Johnson is no different he wants to get paid. Jeffries had better options or real purses and says " you won't draw files " then offers Johnson a private fight for no money.

 

If Lennox Lewis came out of retirement today and competed in a sanctioned professional boxing match (unlikely, but not impossible) in your view, would that invalidate Wlad's claim to ever being the lineal HW world champion?

 

Jeffries repeatedly and explicitly said that he would never fight Johnson or any other black challenger for any money. He said it both before and after the Hart fight and on many other occasions over a period of several years. This isn't something that can be seriously disputed.

[url]https://ibb.co/0hxMZ78[/url]

 

Lol, called your bluff over and over on the “cellar fight” and you have NOTHING - or what you do have doesn’t cut the mustard as a reliable source and you’re too EMBARRASSED to produce it.

I didn’t ask for links to any replications of the “story” - I asked for the original, primary source for the claim - WHO and WHEN.

Now you’re circling back to “reach” for unconfirmed fights that aren’t even on Jeffries’ record and also claiming an imaginary defence of the title against Johnson and STILL, disproportionally hugging the “cellar” story.

Read yourself. You claim to have links to the cellar story - that you won’t or can’t produce - and then state I can’t prove that you don’t have those links, the links you can’t or won’t produce. Hey Abbott……who’s on first again?

UNTIL you produce them, that IS the very PROOF that you don’t have them. And, if you produce a link that merely repeats the “story” of the cellar fight, you KNOW that isn’t what I asked for.

So you believe Jeffries only precluded Johnson because a bout between them “wouldn’t draw flies” but believe at the same time that Jeffries offered a private fight for no monetary gain but still with Jeff’s title at stake.

I mean, really, have you read Gullible’s Travels?

If I was inclined, I could employ the ‘Doza “logic” and methodology thusly:-

“Yes, I’m well aware of the invitation to fight in the cellar. Johnson took Jeff up on the offer and kicked his a**. Jeff reneged on the agreement to hand over the title and also elected to lie about the event, claiming that Johnson backed down from the offer”.

“I have links and articles that tell the tale of Johnson kicking Jeff’s a** and Jeff lying about it after the fact - and you don’t have anything to prove otherwise!! Nah, nah!!”

Are you keeping up with this?

It is not a theory that Jeffries drew the colour line and, as a consequence, DID NOT defend against any black contenders, most significantly - avoiding the clearly eligible Jack Johnson. These are FACTs.

Like I said, you don’t like FACTs but you do love your “stories” that are devoid of facts.

No theory sunk but your arguments have been, well and truly.

Quit while you’re behind rather than embarrass yourself further.

 

From the @apollack book, In the Ring with Jack Dempsey:

"On July 1, according to the Buffalo Enquirer, after shadow boxing and bag punching, Dempsey allegedly weighted 198 1/2 pounds. Deforest claimed that Jack would enter the ring at 203 pounds".
page 457.

" However, Benny Leonard reported that Dempsey stepped on the scales for before lunch on July 1 and weighed 193 1/2 pounds. .
page 457.

"According to Dr. J.J. Sweeney, the Toledo boxing's official medical examniner, Dempsey weighed 191 pounds on Monday, June 30 at noon". Which was 4 days before the bout.
page 459

"The Toledo Blade said Dempsey weighed195 pounds on Thursday, the day before the fight".
pg 462.

Dempsey did not weigh 180 pounds for the Willard fight. Period, full stop. End of discussion.

On the day of the fight "Willard generally was estimated to weigh 240-245 pounds, and Dempsey 196-200 pounds, though some thought he might actually weigh less".
Pge 475

How the Battlers Compare poster of the bout showed Dempsey at 197.
page 469.

 

I need that “In the ring” book.