1915 Jack Johnson Vs. 1927 Jack Dempsey

Get it ASAP. It's Part I, Part II hasn't come out yet.

He's also written IN the RIng with James Jeffries, Black Man against the World (about guess who?), IN the RIng with Jack Johnson Parts I and II, IN the RIng With John L SUllivan, In the Ring with James Corbett, In the Ring with Bob Fitzsimmons, IN the Ring with Marvin Hart, In the Ring with Tommy Burns, In the Ring with Achilles (just kidding).

The man is possessed by boxing!

 

I’ve read Jack Johnson part 1. Waiting for part two of Dempsey to buy it. I will fix my statement a little, Jack Dempsey in his book actually says he weighed 187lbs (I’m pretty sure) though I’ll have to read it, I made a note of it for a debate I had a bit ago. Did you know @apollack is the second cousin of Oscar De La Hoya?

 

Didn't know that. So he's an enemy of Dana White as well?

This content is protected

 

Oh but I produce sources and who are you to say it didn't happen? Now you're mocking me? I am embarrassed for your sake. You can't come up scores or links when requested. Let say Johnson was 178 pounds in 1903 as Box Rec reports, do you think he would beat Jeffries then? I could use a laugh. Asking you.

And by the way I am still waiting for you to proceed sources of a confirm purse by Johnson or a promoter for him to fight Jeffries from 1899-1905.

 

Okay, I’ve well and truly got it. You have NOTHING.

What do you mean “Let’s say Johnson was 178 lbs…..”. It’s listed, on Boxrec.

You are very much in denial.

These are facts - not malleable pieces of information to be omitted, rejected or twisted to suit one’s agendas and ulterior motives.

What are you trying to imply? - that being 178 lbs prevents Johnson from competing with the heavier Jeffries? Check Jim’s record - lighter, smaller men did notably well against him.

IF Jeffries had granted Johnson a shot - Jack would’ve whipped himself into his best shape - and sliced and diced Jeffries to pieces.

After Reno, Jeffries reportedly said he could never have beaten Johnson, couldn’t have reached him in a 1000 years - have you read that one?, should I take that quote as 100% true and disproportionately over weight it to suit an agenda?

No, I’m not so desperate for evidence as to cling to such quotes - and even I have to wonder if Jeffries really said it - there are many other more substantial, valid reasons that give me cause to believe Johnson would’ve beaten Jeffries 1902-1905 (you keep writing the period up as 1899-1905, I’ve been very clear - 1902-1905 - what’s up with that?).

As to mocking, among other things, you described me as a rabid Johnson fan - did I cry over that? No, now you’re crying poor?

Pullease! Another double standard. That’s just adding to your embarrassment.

Of course, in previous posts, I’ve already answered re my opinion of Johnson vs Jeff 1902-1905 - but you keep asking like a broken record.

Now put that laughing, little, rolling head of yours back on your shoulders…you’re liable to lose it…..if you haven’t already.

 

Have to go w Dempsey. Tunney beat him w legs and the 37 year old Johnson I don’t see it. No lock.

 

- Puggy

So now you using a reported link after blasting me for doing the same. Shakespere would appreciate the irony!

So now your picking skinny Johnson 170, and 178 pound man to beat Jeffries! Really?

Did you find any offers for Jeffries vs Johnson form 1899-1905, a purse yet?

Jeffries did not lose to sub 200 pound men, Johnson did several times. Keep thinking about it.

I don't understand your " logic " You call me out several times because your mad at the Louis post, asking me to start a thread in the topic. I reply via PM to you explaining my thoughts. You the go cold and won't answer my questions, not one!

Ok, I get you, don't worry.

 

Why aren’t you replying directly?

YOU dropped the discussion down to PMs, not I.

You were afraid you’d be exposed as you have been now. The discussion should've remained and continued on the thread in question, the thread YOU started - re Joe Louis.

In your PMs, YOU inexplicably asked me to start a separate thread - I didn't ask you to start a thread, I said If you wanted a separate thread then YOU should start it. So, you're lying - and I can quote the PMs in question to prove same.

I correctly identified Jeffries as being “reported” to have said the quote I provided - I’ve not read a primary source for same and didn't frame it as such (apparently the oft repeated quote came from an interview with Jeffries shortly after the 1910 fight in Reno - but I have not read same) - and if you read PROPERLY, you would’ve understood that I didn’t use the alleged quote to support my case AT ALL. In fact, I said that I had my doubts that Jeffries would've even said it. Before attempting to interpret Shakespeare, I suggest you become well versed with Cat in the Hat first.

You’ve been relying HEAVILY and DISPROPORTIONATELY on the private cellar fight "story", PLAYING IT as if it was 100% fact, while providing absolutely NOTHING to support the claim. NOW, you've just ADMITTED that you have nothing BUT articles merely repeating the "story" - no primary source. Well done you. Embarrassing.

After desperately trying to refute Johnson's early career lighter weights, you're NOW also acknowledging that Johnson did weigh about 170 lbs at one stage, as I've already told you - and that STAGE was in and around the time he fought Choynski in 1901 - NOT during the period 1902 to 1905, the period during which I believe Johnson would've beaten Jeffries. I have to say again, you're simply not keeping up, are you?

As to Johnson being 178 lbs, I illuminated you to that weight - Johnson's weight for the first McVey fight in 1903. Prior to that, you were fixated on Johnson's weight for the earlier, 1902 Gardner fight (= 185 lbs) in order to try and suggest that, given Johnson was 185 lb in Oct 1902, he couldn't have been about 170 lb vs Choynski in Apr 1901 - like that makes any sense?? But you try and question anyone else's logic? Lol man, too funny BUT not really.

You're jumping from one unsubstantiated claim (consequently refuted) to another - like a cat on a hot tin roof.

I wasn't mad re the Louis thread as you've tried to claim so many times. I introduced relevant FACTS. You simply can't deal with relevant FACTS nor keep up with any other relevant, incremental features to the discussion.

Nothing to learn from you.

 

Yes, I asked you to start the thread as you been baiting me for it. Unlike yourself I'm not sharing the PM's! Obvisouly its on your mind as you asked for it three times! Talk about desperate. When I play your game of show me the link, you often have none! In fact you shut down.

Johnson's weight between the two fights listed two the fights in 1901 with Choynki ( 168 and 185 ) where he was KTFO in under three rounds was 176.5 pounds. That is if you want to meet me honestly half way. Such punch resistance is not lasting vs a prime Jeffries form 1899-1905. He lost to Griffin and ( should be three times as one fight ruled as a draw says "

Johnson is from Denver and working as Kid Carter's spar-mate. According to the San Francisco Call, while the referee called it a draw, "...Griffin did most of the leading and seemed to be the cleverer of the two..." , was KO'd by Klondike, what the distance with and out of shape Munroe ( A man Jeffries blew away when he was in far better shape, drew with Everett ( a prime version of who a younger Jeffries blew out ), drew with Stift and Scanan, did not impress at all vs Mccormick with fouls. This is the man you " think " beats a prime Jeffries from 1899-1905?

Oh yeah he also got beat in 1909 in a high stakes match with the press suggests the winner faces Jeffries.

Think man, think. Make a case for it as I actually have.

Stop skipping my facts and points!

I will end agreeing with you, that there is nothing I say whether is factual or not that will influence your agenda.

 

The San Francisco Call didn't criticise the decision in that fight. The full quote is:

The big colored fighters were both in splendid condition. Johnson proved himself a clever infighter. Both men did some hard hitting, but there was little of particular interest in the bout. As far as giving and taking punishment were concerned honors were about evenly divided, but Griffin did most of the leading and seemed to be the cleverer of the two. The judges' decision seemed to give general satisfaction.

Since fighters at that time normally got a percentage of the gate rather than a fixed fee, it's unlikely there would be any big, specific purses on offer. Having said that, in 1904 the Century Athletic Club offered a $15,000 guarantee for a Jeffries-Johnson fight.

https://ibb.co/R2qp5xX

 

Hey you found one! Good work, but 15k is a lot less the Jeffries was making, besides he was done fighting by that time after 10-1904.

 

Besides the fact that your arguments have been thoroughly destroyed, you're a liar.

That's why you trap doored yourself to communicate to me via PMs. Pathetic. You asked me several times to start a thread that YOU wanted. Pathetic. Each time you asked to me start a thread, I replied, stating that IF you wanted a thread, you start it. You refused and kept asking me to start a thread - YOU know whose mind it was on - YOURS. Pathetic. One of your reasons you gave for not starting that the thread YOU wanted was that you feared being "trolled" by other posters - well, there was a complete lack of self-awareness, right there. I was clearly dissuading your from communicating to me via PMs.

Of course, you wouldn't share the PMs, that was the WHOLE point of your electing to go via the PM route - to HIDE yourself and your ramblings. Please, no one is as dull as you. No one's buying your lies.

LOL. I introduced contextually relevant facts into the Louis thread, I mean, go figure - but ONLY you would consider that "baiting" - again, pathetic. Quite the sensitive soul when it comes to your blind worship of Jim Jeffries who, btw, was thrashed by Johnson as badly as any fighter, let alone EX Champ, has ever been. Jack could've KO'd him as early as round 4 but as well as the motive to draw the fight out for the films, Jack wanted to make Jeff pay for all the years the not so courageous Jeffries avoided him. Jeff knew what was coming - thus his breakdown even before first bell. Truth hurts.

You will end. Period. Now begone and pick up your dislodged, mindlessly rolling and chuckling head on the way out. Lol.

 

Please go away, you are lair who backs up NOTHING! You are a homer for Louis based on what I said, and very anti Jeffries as you think that means sometime to me. I fear getting trolled you say? You really don't know me. Wrong again.

Now Jeffries who was old and shot could have been KO in round 4 in 1910? It might interest your to know that the fight was pretty much even in round four and Jeffries won round 4. In fact the British press felt that Jeffries was slight in the lead through 4 rounds.

No one agrees with your opinions here.

NEXT.

 

"No one agrees with your opinions". Firstly, the lack of self awareness here is staggering. Secondly, you're wrong and I can prove it. I agree with the points Pugguy has made on his exchanges with you throughout this thread.

He applies standards and criteria consistently, and then arrives at his perceived outcome. Whereas you choose the outcome you'd like, and then choose a criteria to support it. e.g. If you consider that Jeffries was the lineal champion when Johnson fought him, because the lineage can only pass in the ring, then fair enough, Gene Tunney is the lineal HW champion.

No doubt you'll say lineage can only pass in the ring or if the lineal champion retires and never fights again. We can only be certain that a retired lineal champ never fights again when they die. So, applying your criteria consistently, you'd agree that Wlad has never been lineal champion and won't be until Lewis dies, right?

 

As I said, fighters at this time were paid a percentage of the gate. There's no suggestion that the $15,000 the club was willing to put up would be Jeffries' final purse. Although if it had been, it would have been far more than the $9,156 he made on the disappointing gate of $21,800 for his only fight that year.

Jeffries, of course, wasn't interested. As he put it:

I do not care whether Johnson licks the Japanese army. I have repeatedly declared that as long as I am in the fighting business I will never make a match with a black man. The negroes may come and the negroes may go, and some of the negroes may be excellent fighting men. Just tell the public that James J. Jeffries has made up his mind that he will never put on boxing gloves to give battle to a negro.

The previous year Jim Coffroth of the Yosemite Athletic Club had tried to organise a Jeffries-Johnson fight after Johnson's win over Sandy Ferguson. Jeffries remarked:

I am very sorry Sandy Ferguson did not beat Jack Johnson. If Ferguson had beaten Johnson I would have gladly given him a fight. I pass Johnson up because he is colored. I have said I will never box a colored fighter, and I won't change my mind.