1919 Jack Dempsey vs 1960 Sonny Liston

I usually tally up the weights for a fighter's 5-6 best wins, then get the average to see if there's truly a significant weight difference.

From 1918 through 1923 (arguably the peak years) Dempsey consistently weighed between 185-188 for 8 different fights. The 187 weight for the Willard fight was far from unusual. There were only 3 fights from this time frame where he weighed 190+ Smith, Flynn, and Firpo.

Even if one wants to argue Dempsey hadn't truly filled out in his early 20's, according to his own biography he would walk around in the 180-190 range quite regularly and didn't need an extensive training camp to get to his ideal weight. That seemed to be a very comfortable range for his frame and build well into his 20's. His average is still going to end up being about 188 or so for his prime years.

Liston's best prime years were probably 58-62, and people often rate his best wins as: Patterson, Machen, Williams, Folley, Valdez. Average weight roughly 213.

So at the bare minimum, Liston is usually going to be 25 lbs heavier than Dempsey prime vs prime. Considering Liston was a very stocky and strong individual, that's probably a significant weight difference as it's mostly muscle. I'm not saying this guarantees Liston wins either, but as you said it's pretty significant when you have two hard hitting guys meeting ring center letting their hands go. It would be very disingenuous to dismiss a 25 pound difference when we're talking muscle that translates to destructive power.

 

For two years Jimmy McCarter was a starting tackle and a fullback at Washington. The bullying tactics he learned from line play and the easy head and shoulder fakes practiced by backs stood him in good stead as a fighter. McCarter beat Liston in the quarter-finals of the 1953 National AAU Championship in Boston. Ancient history? Too far back to be pertinent? Well, McCarter proved the value of his style a year and a half ago while working with Liston at Sonny's training camp before his first title bout with Floyd Patterson.

"It was funny," McCarter says wryly. "Liston just didn't remember fighting me in the AAU tournament. He didn't remember losing, either. Even though it was in the record books. But from the moment I arrived in camp up in South Fallsburg, [N.Y.] last spring, I seemed to be the butt of all of Sonny's jokes. If someone had a question, Sonny would say, 'Ask college boy, he knows all the answers." After we began to spar, he liked me even less.

"One day after we had worked out. Sonny woke me up by cocking a gun at my head and firing a blank. I guess I annoyed him. He was murdering all the sparring partners in camp except me. This he didn't like. I wasn't about to be raw meat for his bloody appetite. I protected myself. I fought like I did in the amateurs, only I was better. Willie Reddish [Sonny's trainer] had been working with me, and Liston resented this. Willie was forced to stop, but by then I had learned more than I had in my entire career."

McCarter did more than annoy Liston—he infuriated him. Fighting on top of Liston, McCarter was too big for Sonny to move, to set up. When he tried to push McCarter off, the burly college boy pulled back and often gave better than he got. In close, McCarter kept hammering at Liston's body. "Sonny likes to talk about training," he says, "but he's lazy. He doesn't like to do roadwork. And he does not like to be hit in the gut." When Liston managed to get clear, McCarter says, he timed the jab and beat Sonny to the punch. Every punch McCarter threw was a counter to Sonny's lead.

"The right hand was the one I waited for," says McCarter. "Liston throws the right with a lot of body behind it so that when he misses he is off balance. The momentum pitches him forward."

McCarter rolled away from the right and, as Liston lunged forward, he chopped back with his own right hand. In a money match this would have made Liston cautious, but in training it made him mad. Shoving and bullying were, always, Liston's final resort.

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McCarter's last session with Liston was on a day when a group of sportswriters was in camp. Anxious to show off, Sonny quickly used up his meager supply of sparring partners by knocking one out and breaking the rib of another. He was forced to use McCarter. For the better part of three rounds McCarter stayed on top of Liston, punching him in the belly. At times McCarter would step back, giving Liston punching space. Instead of getting killed, however, McCarter either slipped the jab or rolled with the punch and chopped back with a rapid combination.

In the face of such insubordination Liston began to maul and shove. McCarter mauled and shoved right back. Liston tried to throw McCarter out of the ring, but McCarter held on and both men flew into the ropes. The sparring session came to an abrupt end—and so did McCarter's career as a Liston sparring mate. He had made the No. 1 heavyweight contender look bad by refusing to play straight man and passively accept his lumps. Instead, he exposed the flaw that Whitehurst had found: Liston's power can be neutralized by fighting in close.

McCarter, then a schoolteacher in Wilmington, Del., was so encouraged by his Sonny-doesn't-scare-me showing in the Liston camp that he quit teaching and is now training to return to the ring. "Who knows?" he says. "Maybe one day Sonny will have to try me again."

 

Good post, completely agree.

 

Exactly Kas.

When the smoke cleared, the only person who was really persecuted was most people’s favourite “fall guy”: Liston.

Ali’s antics post KD were totally uncalled for and outrageous - pushing the boundaries for a DQ, at least imo.

 

I don't consider any fight after the 2nd Brennan contest to be peak Dempsey. Once Dempsey started getting serious money and became a draw he started to slip, and he didn't fight that often. If you look at the Carpentier fight in comparison to the Willard fight you can see he's carrying more weight, doesn't seem to be as explosive and not as light or bouncy on his feet. Many of Dempsey's great moments weren't filmed. I would say his peak was 1918-1920. My opinion of course.

 

He's still going to be giving up at least 20 lbs of muscle to Liston even with those parameters. Sure Dempsey was lighter on his feet, had fierce combinations, and good head movement, but how long could he keep that up?

Liston was objectively bigger, stronger, had a ramrod jab, fierce uppercut, could frame and use guard manipulation, and threw strong body shots. It would quickly become a very physical, rough, and ugly match. Liston wasn't a lumbering inactive oaf like Willard, nor was he a crude mindless slugger like Firpo. Dempsey is going to be in for the fight of his life.

 

I often think of this point when watching the modern political Left run every historical figure through their current purity lens. I wonder how they’d feel to visit a future where the exact opposite of their views were in vogue, & said future people were labelling them Human garbage?

 

How long could Liston keep it up? Liston never went the full 15.

Dempsey had all the tools you mentioned for Liston minus the 'ramrod jab'.

Dempsey gave up weight against other opponents and still knocked them out so I'm not all that convinced the the size argument. Dempsey had more trouble with quick clever boxers like Billy Miske.

Dempsey wasn't anything like the overprotected, scared Floyd Patterson. At his best he was the most ruthless fighter the world ever saw.

 

I don’t know that extra weight, just like extra reach, is necessarily an advantage here. Of course, both can be, but Liston looks sluggish next to Dempsey. The weight could potentially favour either man.

Same thing with the reach - Liston will get the first opportunity to make that a benefit, but if Dempsey closes the gap, longer arms would turn into a liability.

 

Carl Morris
Fred Fulton
Jess Willard

All over 6'3, 240+lbs

 

Dempsey only went 15 once in his career and rarely went the distance in general. What's your point? Liston never gassed out or had stamina issues. He could very well end the fight before the final bell.

It wasn't just the jab, Liston had a better uppercut and was a better body puncher than Dempsey.

The bigger fighters Dempsey such as Fulton, Firpo, and Willard didn't have 50% of Liston's overall skill and ability. If you think 25 lbs of muscle makes no difference, by all means believe that. No real trainer or fighter would agree with you.

I didn't say anything about Patterson. All I said was that there is a significant difference in size, and that Dempsey will be fighting aggressively on the front foot against a guy whose equally as vicious with tremendous power.

 

25 lbs of muscle is absolutely an advantage in any sport. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone knowledgeable on boxing claiming otherwise (especially if they've sparred or fought before).

Liston wasn't "sluggish" by any stretch of the imagination at his peak. He was a dynamic freight train with power in both hands, superb punching form, and an iron chin. He also had underrated defense. Just because Dempsey was quicker doesn't mean he'd make Liston look slow and sloppy. Unlike Ali, Dempsey would be coming right at Liston, not getting on his toes and circling around.

As for reach, Tyson doesn't even agree with you. When asked how he'd do against Liston, he said even if he gets past the jab Liston has tremendous power. He wouldn't be helpless and can throw short hooks, uppercuts, body shots, etc.

 

Your initial point though reads like muscle is all benefit, no detriment. Muscle uses an absolute tonne of oxygen & energy, as anyone in sports science can tell you. So it has potential as both a positive & negative element in a highly taxing sport like Boxing.

To clarify on your next point, I wasn’t saying Liston was sluggish per se (though he certainly was never quick), but that Dempsey makes him look so by comparison. Speed could be a factor here for Dempsey, just like reach could be for Liston. I wouldn’t call Liston especially slow, but he is certainly slower.

Nobody called Liston hapless at short range. I never said anything like that. Just that I favour Dempsey in close quarters. But if you think it’s a foregone conclusion of a fight, what can I say, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

I'm aware of how excessive muscle can be a detriment. It was never a detriment to Liston. He never gassed out or became sluggish and slow due to his bulk. Hell, he beat Machen comfortably despite the fact Machen was a fast elusive target. Liston wasn't some body builder who became big just for show. Foreman sparred with Liston and was in awe of his strength, and said he worked very hard in the gym. Liston was famous for his cardio workouts like skipping rope or doing old school endurance exercises like pushing a wheelbarrow up and down a hill.

Of course Dempsey's hand speed and agility are advantages, just like Liston's reach and strength are advantages. I never denied this. I just thought you were suggesting Liston would be a slow oaf getting tagged all night and unable to lay a glove.

You said Liston's long arms would be a liability at close range. That's basically implying he'd be helpless. Maybe I'm wrong, but it almost seems you're either backpedaling your initial claims or just wording things very strangely.