1919 Jack Dempsey vs 1960 Sonny Liston

I kind of see this one taking a funny turn, a bit like the first Canelo Golvkin fight.

Dempsey works out that it is not in his interest to plough straight into Liston, so he circles around him, and picks his opportunities.

Liston pumps out his jab, so that at least the punch stats are going to be in his favor.

Exciting exchanges happen, but it turns into a bit of a power punching chess match.

 

What's funny is you claiming Patterson would be a nobody in other eras, yet defending Willard of all people as this noteworthy champion. Do you really want me to embarrass you with a break down of the careers of these two? If Patterson would never have been a champion outside his era, Willard wouldn't even make it as a journeyman in some eras. He has a far worse resume, ability, and skill than Patterson.

What's funny is you completely ignoring what's listed on multiple websites about how Willard Homer Simpsoned his way to victory against an ancient champion absorbing punishment until Johnson gassed.

What's funny is you calling Machen a nobody who never won anything while hyping up Fulton.

It's also not just funny, but tear inducing levels of hilarity to compare the crude caveman Firpo to Liston. That's about as logical as me saying Liston wins for sure since Patterson and Dempsey are comparable. Actually, that's an even more accurate comparison.

 

No.

 

I only defended Willard's skills and his performance against Johnson. I didn't say he was some ATG.

Go on, 'embarrass me'.

Johnson lost to the younger, stronger, better conditioned fighter. That's the fact of the matter.

Fulton beat better fighters than Machen.

I never even mentioned Firpo in relation to Liston can you even read? You were the one who brought Firpo into the conversation not me. Your daftness is kicking in big time. Please show me were I compared Firpo to Liston. Quote me.

If you think Dempsey and Patterson are 'comparable' then YDKSAB.

 

All of it.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. There had been a rule in effect to retire to a neutral corner, your own corner, or the furthest corner since the advent of the Marquis of Queensbury Rules in 1867. Its literally Rule #4 of the Queensbury rules which all modern professional boxing bouts are base on. When Dempsey fought Willard in the 1919 the Toledo Boxing Commission had codified its rules a year and half earlier in January of 1918 which laid out in their rule #63 that it deferred to the Queensbury rules when a fighter was down. The Walker Law which governed boxing in New York went into effect in 1920 and states that "when a contestant is down his opponent shall retire to the furthest neutral corner and stay there until the count is completed. Should he fail to do so the referee may cease counting until he has so retired."

 

Patterson: 2x champion and gold medalist. Notable wins over Moore, Ingo, Cooper, Bonavena, Machen, Chuvalo. Still has some of the fastest hands ever seen. People still study film of him. Won fight of the year.

Jess Willard: 1x champion. Notable wins: 37 year old Jack Johnson, Frank Moran, and KO'd George Rodell by putting him in a headlock then uppercut him, Nothing is noteworthy about him other than his ability to take a beating and absolutely nobody is studying film of him except to see Dempsey tear him to pieces.

Guess which fighter is usually rated signficantly higher on most people's ATG list?

Shall I continue? Should I do a poll asking who people think has a better chance in other eras?


Willard was not "better" than Johnson, he was simply bigger and outlasted him after trailing on the cards in the sweltering heat.

You brought up Fulton and Firpo as proof of Dempsey's ability to fight bigger men. Then I explained why this was flawed because Liston was significantly better than both of them with different styles. If those two can be brought up in comparison to Liston, then yes I'm comparing Dempsey to Patterson. Sarcasm is clearly not your strong suit.

 

If the ref didn't enforce the rule then it's his fault. What about that don't you understand.

Going to the neutral corner was not common practice until the mid 20's. How many fights from that period do you see that rule observed?

 

I don't think either fighter is an ATG.

I said Willard was better than Johnson on the night.

I did not mention Firpo in comparison to Liston, you did. If I did, then quote me. It's not that difficult, everything I've said is on the thread.

If you're not particularly interested in watch Willard on film then that's your prerogative but don't make declarative statements about his lack of skills if you're not interested in verifying.

You literally claimed that Dempsey didn't throw bodyshots or uppercuts even though those were two of his main weapons. And instead of admitting you were wrong you changed the subject to Dempsey standing over Firpo instead of backing away as though that had anything to do with whether he threw uppercuts or not.

 

Clear as day. No mention of Firpo.

 

Patterson is above Willard on virtually every ATG list I've ever seen, usually by a pretty significant margin. I've seen Patterson as high as 11-15, Willard not so much.

No i did not. I said Liston was a better body puncher and better at throwing uppercuts.

You've been attacking points I never made.

Sure, I'll concede you didn't mention Firpo. Will you now concede I never said that Dempsey didn't throw uppercuts or body shots...?

 

I never said that Jess Willard was ranked higher than Patterson on anybody's lost. I wouldn't rank either in the top 20. I took exception to you calling him an 'oaf bum' and pointed out that he was (at least in the Johnson fight) a technically proficient fighter.

I will concede that you didn't say that Dempsey didn't have uppercuts of body punches. But you did insinuate that they were not key weapons for him which is not true.

 

Fair enough.

 

Ok, so now you admit the rule was in force and that the money fighter simply got the benefit of shitty officiating (imagine that). Thats progress I guess.

And frankly you are trying to dodge the original point which was when somebody questioned which rules Dempsey would fight under because he wasnt fighting under a neutral corner rule. Untrue, he was, he just got the benefit of shitty officiating. It wouldnt matter which rules Dempsey fought under as long as the rules were enforced and that wouldnt have jack **** to do with how familiar Dempsey was with the rules because as stated above the corner rule had been in effect since the gloved boxing era began.

Regardless this is all moot because there is no way in hell Jack Dempsey could be dragged into the ring with Sonny Liston and if somebody does get him into the ring with Liston he would get his ass kicked. Liston would bust Dempsey's face up like a melon with his jab and whenever Dempsey got inside Liston beat him up on the inside as well because as someone else said above, Liston was excellent both inside and out. He had a crazy long reach, an all time great powerful jab, and despite his ability to seemingly tag a guy from halfway across the ring he had the uncanny ability to shorten up his punches on the inside.