1919 Jack Dempsey vs 1960 Sonny Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Mar 27, 2024.



Who wins and how

  1. Liston KO/TKO

    80.0%
  2. Dempsey KO/TKO

    13.3%
  3. Liston Decision

    2.2%
  4. Dempsey Decision

    2.2%
  5. Draw

    2.2%
  1. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    As I have said the rule wasn't enforced. I have no idea why I have to keep repeating that I'm not typing in Mandarin.

    And as I said in a previous comment the referee that officiated that fight was punished and never refereed a bout again. You act as though Dempsey wasn't accustomed to standing that close to a downed opponent even though he'd been allowed to do that in his previous fights.

    You should levy your criticisms at many different fights because that rule was very seldom enforced before the mid-20's, if you watch any fight films from the turn of the century you will find that it wasn't enforced. I cannot think of any fight that I've seen circa-1925 where the rule is observed, if you can think of one feel free to share.

    You're entitled to your opinion about how a Dempsey-Liston fight goes.
     
  2. newurban99

    newurban99 Active Member Full Member

    688
    913
    Apr 24, 2010
    Interesting. That's news to me.
     
  3. newurban99

    newurban99 Active Member Full Member

    688
    913
    Apr 24, 2010
    Liston was a physical marvel. Psychologically Dempsey was a tougher man. I have a feeling Sonny wouldn't like being in there with him. I pick Dempsey by 7th round KO.
     
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013
    Very telling that you went from claiming that the neutral corner rule was added two months after the Firpo bout to this. So, again, you now know the rule was in effect. Again, it doesnt matter what Dempsey was ALLOWED to do. What matters is what the rules were. If the rules were never enforced it wouldnt have been so newsworthy that the referee allowed him to violate them. You say the referee never refereed again (incorrect, as with almost everything else youve said on this thread) but if this were true then the question begs to be answered: WHY? He certainly got a lot of criticism for the way he officiated the fight and it was noted by most that he allowed Dempsey to violate the rules by standing over Firpo.

    Off the top of my head:

    Criqui-Kilbane
    Loughran-Lomski
    Nelson-Britt, where you can see the referee literally forcing Nelson away.
    Sharkey-Maloney
    Firpo-Brennan
    Firpo-Willard

    I could keep going but between you and I do you really want to get into a dick measuring contest with me over who has seen more fights from the 1920s? The bottom line is that the rule was in effect and poor officiating doesnt change that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
    KasimirKid likes this.
  5. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013
  6. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013
    https://flic.kr/p/2pGTzez

    Here file this away for future reference. This is the publication of the Walker Law, the rules that governed boxing in New York during Dempsey's reign beginning in 1920. Take special note of the second to last rule under "powers of the referee".
     
  7. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    You literally just proved my point. I said the referee was reprimanded for allowing Dempsey to do what he did and that is exactly what that clipping states. Are you hard of reading? The writer in the second wrote it perfectly: 'if the referee had been wise to his own work he wouldn't have counted until Dempsey backed away'.
     
  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013

    Im just going to leave this here again, since you think I have a hard time understanding what youve written when in reality I only have a hard time keeping up with your shifting story...

    So once again, let me ask you: Was there a neutral corner in place? Yes or no? Somebody just has a really hard time admitting when they are wrong. Because literally everything you wrote above is wrong. And once again I would refer you to my original point which was that the rules were the same vis a vis returning to a neutral corner in both Dempsey and Liston's eras. So the idea of which rules they would fight under is moot. Its even more moot because a fighter who ducked his number one contender for seven full years isnt going to be fighting Liston and hoping that he would drop Liston for us to see how the referee would react is comical.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
  9. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    There is a difference between the existence of the rule and the enforcement of it. The rule was written down in the Marquis of Queenberry but it wasn't enforced. If it was you'd be able to produce more examples of fights were it was in effect.

    Why is it that you've only been able to give me 4 examples prior to the Dempsey-Firpo fight were such a rule was enforced? Doesn't that prove my point that the rule was seldom in effect?

    It doesn't matter in the ring what the rules are, it matters what rules are enforced, if the referee isn't doing his job properly then you can't blame the fighter, that's common sense.

    You don't want to get in a 'dick measuring contest' because you know you would lose the argument.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
  10. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    If it wasn't legal the referee would and should have prevented him from doing it. After all it is the referee's job to enforce the rules, that's on the referee not on Dempsey.

    That's only a zinger if you completely ignore the second part of the statement.
     
  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013
    I did.

    You asked for one.

    Oh ok, so now the rule was in effect but it doesnt matter as long as you can benefit from bad officiating...

    Sure buddy. Im pretty confident Ive seen more films from the era than anyone on this forum and frankly we can go there if you want.

    But hey, once again, nice to see you cant admit you were wrong.
     
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,970
    5,319
    Feb 10, 2013
    Yeah, after arguing over and over that the rule didnt exist. Way to try to cover your ass and completely ignore all of the criticism Dempsey and the ref got, pointing to the fact that it wasnt legal or common practice, or sportsmanlike. But lets face it, the mental gymnastics you will perform to be "right" in your mind are impressive to the say the least. I mean you will call Patterson protected but completely ignore that the hero of your narrative ducked his #1 HW contender and a middleweight for the vast majority of his reign and never fought either. Go take a look at the guys Patterson was brave enough to fight and tell me the names on his resume dont **** all over Dempsey's...
     
    Glass City Cobra likes this.
  13. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    If you've seen more films from the era then why are you so reluctant to measure metaphorical 'dicks'?

    By your standard almost every fighter before the early-mid 20's benefited from bad officiating. You seem to have a problem because it was Dempsey. You should denounce every fighter that ever stood next to a downed opponent. Apply your standard judiciously.
     
  14. HomicideHank

    HomicideHank I believe in the transmigration of souls Full Member

    549
    373
    Nov 27, 2023
    If you say so.

    I didn't ignore Dempsey not fighting Wills and Greb. I acknowledged it on this very forum and on others. You must not know how to read.
     
  15. DBCOOPERJR

    DBCOOPERJR New Member banned Full Member

    40
    40
    Mar 22, 2024
    This would be identical to Liston and Patterson sure Dempsey will come to fight but Sonny ends this early real early