1922 corbett article on langford

Firstly ,my response was for Chris Pontius ,so unless you have changed your name,[not unlikely, as you have before] , it was not aimed at you ,but still ,since ,you have swooped down with your ever ready stick to beat Jack Johnson ,I will answer you.

I did NOT say that Johnson did not care about stopping men, I put it forth as one of three possible conclusions to be drawn from the facts.
Do you know ,you were in such a tearing hurry to spread your vitriol that you couldnt be bothered to correct your spelling mistakes?
Why can't you just say,"I think Jack Johnson was **** ,"and let it go at that?
The point to focus on here ,as you put it, is this.
BOTH MEN WERE 20 LBS BELOW THEIR OPTIMUM WEIGHT.
Langford scaled 156, his best weight was around 176lbs, not the weight he carried in his later career when he was fat and dilatory in his training habits,THE MAN WAS UNDER 5 FEET 7inches TALL!
What do you think he should weigh?
Likewise Johnson who came in at 185lbs was 20lbs below his best weight.,23 actually CHECK OUT THE FILM OF HIM AGAINST JEFFRIES.HE SCALED 208 LBS WITH A WASH BOARD STOMACH, NO FAT ON HIM ANYWHERE.He was skinny at 185lbs.
Langford was the more experienced fighter ,having had 56 fights to Johnson's 43.Langford was 23 ,Johnson26.
I give no excuses for Johnson not stopping ANY fighter, why should I?
It would be like asking you why Jeffries did not manage to stop Sharkey in 45rds,yet Fitz a Lhvy did it twice.I think MOST fighters had the chance of going the distance with Johnson,he was never known as a big bomber.Going the distance is not the same as BEATING HIM , however.
When it comes to that ,I think very few men were capable of doing it as the fact that he went UNBEATEN FOR 10 YEARS PROVES.I have no way of knowing that Jeffries retired to avoid a meeting with Johnson ,though it is a real possibility.Prime for prime I think Johnson would have won 7 days a week ,but they would have been hard battles..If Jeffries had fought Johnson , in 1906 I pick Johnson.

PS.SAM LANGFORD fought Young Peter Jackson 5 times, 3 15 rounders, and 1 20 rounder.plus 1 other.Langford managed to stop Jackson ONCE, IN THEIR LAST FIGHT,WHEN JACKSON WAS 44 YEARS OLD ! Jackson had 149 fights and was stopped TWICE, once by Mysterious Billy Smith ,on a tko, and a ko in 2 rds by Langford when Jackson was 44. Why do I need to find an excuse for Johnson not stopping him?

 

Johnson was notorious for doing enough to win and rarely pushed for a KO unless unusally motivated ... this is fact ... Langford was an exceptional fighter but Johnson the better heavyweight ... yes johnson ducked him from 1911 on but at that time Johnson was 33, a heavy drinker and forever past his best days ...

 

I cant decide if I am supposed to be agreeing or arguing with you .Do you judge Johnson's fights on whether he scored ko? If you do then I don't expect you to think much of him.He was a cautious boxer ,who stated "Defence allways wins in the end,if its good enough",I dont think you would call him a banger.
Maybe my reply to Mendoza will better explain my point?

 

Pontius, how was johnson near his peak at 185lb? he grew into a ripped 205lber in 1909-1910 vs ketchell and jeffriess

 

Because he had already scored his career best wins, was only two years away from winning the title and dominating the (admittedly, pathetic) white challengers afterwards. If that's not near his peak then when was he near his peak?

No, i don't judge them on scoring a KO, however you did when you made criticizing points that he went the distance with Y.P. Jackson, etc. But whether he was a banger or not, he still had a significant size advantage over most of his foes, including Langford, and was lightyears ahead in terms of skills. In that he could throw more than a right swing to the jaw. He still scored plenty of stoppages. So, in that sense i'm surprized that Langford went the full 15.

 

It certainly isnt fair to compare Johnson and Jeffries on the basis of their fight, Jeffries was shot.To say that Jeffries would be rated as the number 1 heavyweight if he had not made his aborative comeback is rather far fetched however.
Ps Jeffries had been out of the game allmost as long as Jackson had when Jeffries fought him.[couldnt resist that one].:good
The comparison between Corbett and Johnson is misleading imo.Johnson was 20lbs heavier than Corbett ,stronger and hit harder ,plus he was not as fleet around the ring relying on his parrying and blocking skills coupled with his excellent anticipation to intercept punches ,whereas Corbett relied on his footwork to a far greater extent, over a long haul Corbett would therefore appear to be more likely to tire quicker than Johnson.When Johnson fought Jeffries one of the most astounding facets of the fight was how easily Johnson handled Jeffries in the clinches ,and this was before Jeff's stamina betrayed him.
When Jeffries managed to get close to Corbett he was in control, that would not be the case against Johnson,imo.Johnson was very strong inside and a master of clinching and negating an opponents work,close quarters with Jeffries would hold no fears for Jack.
A prime for prime fight between them would certainly be very much closer than their real fight was ,but with the same outcome ,Johnson winning ,but probably by dec,imo.

 

Jeffries also defeated an old Corbett, one no where near the man who defeated Sullivan and fought Jackson to a draw ..

 

Of course ,but I assumed C Moyle was aware of that and took it into account ,whereas Mendoza would have conveniently omitted it, or as usual, assert that Corbett was in is prime.

 

Johnson's best performance on film is vs Burns. In this fight Johnson was active and had energy to move around a lot. Johnson was what, 190 pound for the Burns fight. i think so. So Chris has a point that 185 was near his peak weight.

 

Clay,

Are you aware Jeffries vs Corbett 1 was about even or in Jeffries favor prior to the KO in round 23? The myth that Corbett was way ahead is Corbett's mouth. It was posted on the Internet, and grew a life of its own.

Jeffries took most of the early rounds, and was in charge from rounds 17 to finish with a knock down in round 19 before the KO in 23. Corbett had a mid point rally. That is pretty much the real story of the fight. Credible news papers say the fight was close. The round by round report is posted in the archives here twice, once with the full report, another time by Gullah with a best guess as to who was ahead based on the he detailed round by round deceptions.

At any rate, Corbett was more mobile with his feet. Johnson on film was a better in fighter than out fighter, and had some poor performances in victory, defeat and draws while Jeffries was champion.

The Munroe report was also flushed out by the Bute minor there was no knockdown. It was Munroe's camp making it up. The only kd's were scored by Jeffries in the exibtion 4 round match. I think Munroe was down at least twice.

If you compare and contrast common opponents the two fought while Jeffries was champion, Johnson drew, lost or was Ko'd by guys Jeffries dusted.

If A beats C AND C beats B, then A should also beat B.

Jeffries did far better vs Munroe, Griffin, Everett, Choynski than Johnson did.

The only logical conclusion is Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in his prime. Besides some Johnson apologist here suggest he didn't take things seriously, or was far from his 210 pound prime weight from 1899-1905, so what chance would he really have if that was a true statement?

Who thought Hart would have a chance vs Jeffires? No one. Johnson had a chance for a high stakes fight when he meet Hart and put off a horrible performance.

 

quote=Mendoza;4055041]Clay,

Are you aware Jeffries vs Corbett 1 was about even or in Jeffries favor prior to the KO in round 23? The myth that Corbett was way ahead is Corbett's mouth. It was posted on the Internet, and grew a life of its own.

Jeffries took most of the early rounds, and was in charge from rounds 17 to finish with a knock down in round 19 before the KO in 23. Corbett had a mid point rally. That is pretty much the real story of the fight. Credible news papers say the fight was close. The round by round report is posted in the archives here twice, once with the full report, another time by Gullah with a best guess as to who was ahead based on the he detailed round by round deceptions.

At any rate, Corbett was more mobile with his feet. Johnson on film was a better in fighter than out fighter, and had some poor performances in victory, defeat and draws while Jeffries was champion.

The Munroe report was also flushed out by the Bute minor there was no knockdown. It was Munroe's camp making it up. The only kd's were scored by Jeffries in the exibtion 4 round match. I think Munroe was down at least twice.

If you compare and contrast common opponents the two fought while Jeffries was champion, Johnson drew, lost or was Ko'd by guys Jeffries dusted.

If A beats C AND C beats B, then A should also beat B.

Jeffries did far better vs Munroe, Griffin, Everett, Choynski than Johnson did.

The only logical conclusion is Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in his prime. Besides some Johnson apologist here suggest he didn't take things seriously, or was far from his 210 pound prime weight from 1899-1905, so what chance would he really have if that was a true statement?

Who thought Hart would have a chance vs Jeffires? No one. Johnson had a chance for a high stakes fight when he meet Hart and put off a horrible performance.[/quote]

Keep trying .

 

Johson himself stated,"I was at my best when I fought Jeffries, my condition and wind were perfect".Johnson scaled 208 lbs for that fight which is 23lbs heavier than he was for Langford.