1951 Joe Louis vs 1993 George Foreman

Two fighters past their best but still capable at world level. How does this go?

In 1949 joe Louis knocked out Elmer Ray, Pat Valentino, and Al Housman. He also beat contenders Johnny Shkor and Johnny Flynn in ten rounders. He also fought Rex Layne, Elmer Ray, Curtis hatchet man shepherd and Roscoe Toles. All these bouts were officially "exhibitions".

In 1950 prior to meeting Charles joe Louis fought 26 "exhibitions" many of them quite serious like including knockout over Nino Valdes. He also met decent men omelio Agramante, Andy walker, Clarence Henry, Rex Layne, Henry Hill during these assignments. In an official fight he went ten rounds with tough contender Cesar Brionin November. This started an 8 fight 10 month run on the title.

In 1951 joe Louis beat Cesar Brion a second time on points. The second time Louis looked very good. Louis Finished strong.

He beat Omelio Agramante twice on points. He decked Agramante in one of those fights.

He easily beat Jimmy Bivins who had been loosely called the interim HW champion during the war years.

He knocked out top contender Lee Savold who had EU recognition as World champion as a rival to Ezzard Charles.

He stopped recent world title challenger Freddie Beshore.

And he stopped Andy Walker a big west coast heavyweight of only local interest.

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

After an incredible ten year break from boxing George Foreman started his comeback in 1987. He had 5 fights that year sensibly starting from the beginning he was not fighting name guys. In 1988 he fought 9 times, all knockouts, with only Dwight Qawi being remotely close to stepping up to a name fighter. In 1989 George fought five times mostly against former cruiserweight like Bert Cooper and Everett Martin who took him the distance. In 1990 George fought five times knocking out Gerry Cooney and Aldison Rodriguez. In 1991 George landed a title fit with Evander Holyfeild losing a competitive but clear decision loss on points. He had one other fight that year a TKO over an unranked Jimmy Ellis. George only had one fight in 1992 a tough disputed ten rounder against Alex Stewart who closed up and bruised George's face leading him to take 9 months off.

In 1993 George had two good fights with rated men Tommy Morrison who beat George on points and Pierre Coetzer who he stopped quite impressively.

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

And here is the historic moment Foreman and Louis meet in the ring!


https://streamable.com/g0ic

 

Yes he did. The Shkor fights were no decision with newspaper verdicts the next day. Elmer fought Louis a number of times. Nino Valdez was knocked out in one round. A full record of these contests can be found on the cyber boxing zone

 

Seems like 51' Louis is regarded the same level as Comeback George after all.

Folks seem split on who was better.

 

They both appeared as rated contenders in Ring Magazine. Shkor was a headliner. He stopped Tami Mauriello.

Nino had been boxing for nine years. He won important and thrilling fights in Cuba with Frederick Malibran.
Caron Gonzalez, a well-known Cuban trainer remarked in an interview about Valdez: "Some said he lacked heart but he had plenty of heart. If you traded with him he would trade with you like he did with Malibran in those two wars and if he hit you right it was like brass knuckles, but he was slow on the final blow sometimes, like he hoped the referee would stop it."


"In 1945 Valdez was matched with the only other Cuban heavyweight everyone avoided, a muscular fighter named Federico Malibran.


The two men went at each other with gusto. Malibran was a quality fighter, a main event performer who used a bag of tricks on his opponent, stopping the still inexperienced Valdez in the fourth round, chopping him down with combinations. Instead of moping around, Valdez asked for a rematch and stopped Malibran in eight.


"The fights with Malibran were wars," he told me, years later. "He was strong, young and fast and so was I. The first fight I was nervous and he was a seasoned fighter and I lost. I wore him down in the second fight, pounding him and he took a good shot.Those fights made me feel good. People knew who I was and I became aware that I could go far in boxing, trade with the best."


Five more years went by and not much happened. Valdez fought a few fights in Cuba and some in the United States. He fought only nine times in those five years, losing only to Archie McBride, a likeable, talented fighter managed by best selling author Budd Schulberg.


One of the big thrills of Nino's life was having boxed three exhibitions with Joe Louis in 1949 and 1950. Valdez always spoke about the Brown Bomber with reverence.


"It was solemn," he said,"like being with royalty."

In his comeback, What fighter did Foreman knockout like Valdes?

At no point was Clarance Henry seen as a better contender than Joe Louis was as an ex champion.
Losing to Louis Bivins was only 30 years old. Until he retired Bivins would only lose to Tommy Harrison, Ezzard Charles and Bob Baker after Louis. In fact he continued to beat good guys on the circuit even outpointing 22-2 Mike Dejohn in his very last fight four years after Jimmy fought Louis. Dejohn could not deck Bivins anymore than Louis couldn't. In those remaining four years Bivins knocked out Coley Wallace who beat Marciano. He had other wins over guys like Wes Bascome and Charley Doc Wilson. He was no slouch after Louis. Bivins was never a bad fighter. Compare this to the guys comeback Foreman was beating like Crawford Grimsby.. Jimmy Ellis..Everett Bigg foot Martin...

Who was comeback Foremans Jimmy Bivins?

In 1948 Savold had three wins and one disqualification loss. He never fought in 1949 but had one win in 1950. So I don't understand this business of having one win in three years? I count four.

George Foreman lost to Tommy Morrison. And he was only the only contender George met since losing to Holyfeild.

In his next fight Morrison was shown up by Michael Bentt in a one round blow out.

 

What's better, two wins over Cesar Brion or a loss to Tommy Morrison?

 

joe won a shoot out with Max Baer and his fight with a very lively young Cesar Brion was quite physical. I think he can deal with a 43 year old Foreman. The only guys that counted that George fought in his comeback was Holyfeild, Morrison, Moorer. Apart from one punch he lost those fights. They stood with him. Alex Stewart was not as good as Cesar Brion. Alex beat George and so did Axel Schulz and Lou Saverese. These guys were only fringe at best at the time. Yet in my view George did not win them.

There is no evidence Joe was a one arm fighter in 1951. He decked Agramante in 1951 with that hand. Marciano was able to neutralise the Louis right hand by rushing him, smothering him. Tommy Farr was able to take away the right hand to some extent against a prime Joe Louis. It was I will accept harder for joe to get off With the right hand than in his prime..but he was still using it and effective with it in 1951. You won't find a 1951 film of Joe NOT using his right hand put it that way.

the only guys that count were no bigger. Morrison, Moorer and Holyfeild.

Morrison lost two of the three fights you mention here and was snuffed out by Michael Bentt.

The ones that beat George officially were not hugely technically inferior to Louis I agree. But when did Bald, comeback George beat anyone convincingly who was almost good enough to not be hugely technically inferior to 51 Joe Louis.

This is a good point. Stewart couldn't do anything better than the 51 version of Joe Louis and he jabbed George silly and was robbed of the decision. joe did have two hands. Against a slow target like George he would get his right hand off much more than he did against Rocky. But Stewart actually shows one hand was enough. But Against George Alex only had a jab himself.

 

His last but one? So you mean Savold did win in 1950. it's not what you said is it?

Savold was scheduled to meet Woodcock in White Cuty open air stadium in September 1949 for the European version of the Wold title, but weeks beforehand Woodcock fell asleep at the wheel of a Lorry driving equipment to his training camp in Wales nearly killing himself in the process when he drove off the road, down a bank, and into some trees. The fight was rescheduled 9 months later when the weather was better. That's the only reason Savold was out of the ring in 1949.

As previously stated Savold won three fights in 1948. In his forth fight that year (a disqualification loss to Woodcock From low blows) Lee had already legitimately decked Woodcock and looked ahead.