1960 Sonny Liston vs 1919 Jack Dempsey

Delete

 

If this anecdote is true it confirms my thinking about Liston. He was a frontrunner, more bully than tough (You have to be tough to be a fighter. This is all in relative terms). I don't know how his apologist convince so many to undeservingly prop up his greatness as a fighter. He's H2H supposed to be just as much as a monster as he was described as being during his reign. The apologist convince many that his quitting against the fair hitting young Clay was either an aberration or irrelevant at that point of his career. This point only came 18 months after his most brutal and dominating performance over HW champion Floyd Patterson. But 18 months later he was an alcoholic shell. Christ, he's still the only man to relinquish the most prized championship on his stool since Jess Williard. And Williard deserved the right to quit on his stool. He took a shellacking of a beating.

Of course Liston beats Dempsey. He may be suited for Frazier & Marciano types, but I'd be hesitant to pick him against either man... although more likely to pick him against Joe than Marciano due to styles & attributes. A fight against Louis would be interesting, too. But guys like Ali, Tyson, and Lewis would either dominate him or brutalize him. Holmes would likely frustrate him with his jab and out-box him. Foreman probably overpowers him. The idea that he so inconveniently happened to be matched up to his worst and only style foil when fought Clay is absurd. He would likely lose to many HW champions. You don't go out on your stool and win wars against every other HW great but the GOAT HW.

 

Floyd packing a beard, hat and glasses in with his boxing kit in case he loses is not the action of a determined and confident fighter. It is more the action of a guy who did not want to go through with the fight. Liston may as well have packed his own groucho marx fake nose, glasses and mustache when he fought clay the second time.

ps. i boxed, I am no armchair fan.

 

He was more confident the second time around ?

 

I might be wrong but I would have thought Dempsey's style and attributes would be better suited to Liston than both Frazier and Marciano.

For a start, you seem to favour the guy with the short arms and the slowest feet ! (I know there must be more to it than that, but still.)

 

I think it was pride rather than confidence. He wanted to do better. I'm not convinced he was convinced he could actually win.

Yeah, who knows.

I agree with your point.
I'd say Patterson was just nowhere near good enough. Liston outclassed him. Unconfident or not, Patterson was getting blasted out.

 

Yes, it's open to interpretation.

It's discussed here :

[url]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WiTLhuqN1AQC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=floyd+patterson+fake+beard&source=bl&ots=0dKz4DMD97&sig=cvD2u1FHnackFtZlt2X46YqBiTQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g__aT81m6tvRBbalmYYL&ved=0CGgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]


Interestingly, apparently it wasn't the first time he'd packed the disguise.

 

Yeah, the fact that he took it to the Tom McNeeley fight kind of makes choklab's statement untenable ......
("Floyd packing a beard, hat and glasses in with his boxing kit in case he loses is not the action of a determined and confident fighter. It is more the action of a guy who did not want to go through with the fight. ")
.... and backs up what you said later ....
(ie. "I don't doubt that he was intimidated but the fake beard may be completely unrelated to any expectations of his loss.")

 

Self doubt and half mast effort are apples and oranges ...

You're an armchair fan when it comes to Sonny and Floyd. JUst another guy passing harsh judgement.

 

The disguise may have been packed for a few fights but it shows that the cracks in patterson had already started to show. For a shy guy he had been in the spot light quite a bit longer than might have been comfortable for him. maybe the first ingo fight made him feel like he could no longer take things for granted? The presure of fighting for "decent america" whilst telling folks to give "liston a break" was something he could have done without. The worry of letting people down again was on his shoulders. Floyd fought with demons, he overcame ingo but perhaps his doubts overwhelmed him against LIston.

 

No harsher than the great angelo dundee:


"I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”
　
Later on page 191 when asked by red smith after the title [url]win[/url] if he feared for clay up against Listons KO power:
　
“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.”

PAGE 189 OF "I only talk winning" By angelo dundee.