1963 Henry Cooper vs 1988 Evander Holyfield

I concede that this is in all likelihood a realistic outcome.

I just think the 1960s heavyweights were so far ahead of the shallow 1980s cruiserweight infancy that Holyfield might need more elite seasoning at that stage.

This is an opponent for Evander that only a miracle prevented Muhammad Ali being knocked out.

Remember in the same 1980s era, as a finished article at LHW, Micheal Spinks was able to completely bypass the CW division.

 

But we aren't matching the 60's heavyweight division against Holyfield, we are matching just one of them .Henry Cooper who had 23 fights in that decade and lost 5 of them,2 to unranked opposition,Johnson and Rischer .Would the 88 version of Holyfield lose to those 2 ?
Cooper beat 2 top ten ranked fighters in his career.Miteff no8,Folley no3.The 2 other ranked fighters he met beat him.

 

True. Cooper was patchy. Hypothetically on his best night though, that version of “H” would represent a steep improvement over the 1980s cruiserweight infancy. As would most elite1960 heavyweights.

Like I said before, Glen McCrory and Patrick Lumumba would be fighting for genuine versions of its championship. 1980s Cruiserweight division was perhaps the lowest regarded of all divisions at that time. Probably lowest regarded talent wise of all time.

 

Cooper wasn't even a ranked heavyweight after 1962.Holyfield had moved up to heavy by then ,so McCrory and Lumumba are irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Cooper was Ranked most years from 1958 until 1969 at heavyweight. He misssed out on some end of year rankings admittedly.

McCrory and Lumumba are relevant to the talent pool of the cruiserweight division. Lumumba, a top contender, challenged for a vacant title with a record of 8-2. James warring won a title at 11-1. Robbie Williams was 13-5 and 15-3 Ossie Ocasio fought for a vacant title in 1982, Evander himself just 11-0. This is the level when cruiserweight was not yet a proper division. Prospects and has beens. The trend continued and had went on before. Some gave up the title without defending it because there was nobody to fight.

 

Can you please provide the info on these extra years you say he was ranked,and who he beat to remain there?
63. Cooper had 2 fights winning one over unranked Richardson and losing the other to Ali.
64. Cooper had 2 fights beating unranked London and losing to unranked Rischer,
65.4 fights beating unranked Wipperman,unranked Chip Johnson,unranked Prescott,and losing to unranked Amos Johnson.
66. 4 fights beating unranked Hilton,unranked Davis ,and losing to Ali and Patterson.
67.3 fights beating unranked Jacobs,unranked Bodell and unranked Walker.
68.1 fight a dsq win over unranked Mildenberger.
69.1 fight a win over unranked Tomasoni.


McCrory and Lummunba are not relevant because when they competed for the cruiser title Holyfield was a heavyweight.We are talking about 1988.

 

Cooper maintained a ranking with either the IBA or the Ring from the Foley loss up to losing to Cassius Clay in 1963.

1964 he won the Euro title. Rischer temporarily took Henry’s ranking so he clearly was ranked that year Pryor to that

1965 Amos Johnson certainly got a rating from beating Henry. Which is why Cooper did not appear in the end of year ranking. The Earlier three wins that year May have. Though I admittedly have no record of it.

1966 Cooper as British champion maintained a ranking by the time he fought Ali for the title. Hilton was rated at number 9. Jefferson Davis went 10 rounds with Ernie Terrell. Cooper knocked him out in one. Losing to Patterson and Ali might not necessarily have knocked Cooper out of all of the boxing magazine ratings that year.

1967 fights with Bodell and Billy Walker for the Empire title were good enough wins earning him a third Lonsdale belet outright, Walker beat Thad Spencer and Bodell has decent enough wins. I also have no record of Henry having a Magazine ranking that year but I would imagine anyone beating Cooper would get a ranking.

1968 the mildenberger fight was a good win. Mildenberger was rated number 9 in 1967 yet Osacar Bonavena romped to a #4 ranking from beating him on points in the WBA tournament. Months later Henry Cooper won the European title from the same German.

So perhaps only 1965 and 1967 could be two of 10 years Henry didn’t have a ranking?

By comparison the cruiserweight championship of the 1980s was being won by men with very little experience in a division that barely existed. Even if there was three belts up for grabs the division was absolutely in its infancy. Very few listed cruiserweights.

 

I'd like months he was ranked ,if you have them.You seem to be going largely by presupposition not verified facts. Being a British Champion has never automatically qualified fighter for a top ten world ranking,nor has being European Champion for that matter.
Davis going 10 rds with Terrell is again irrelevant, Davis was never ranked and never more than a journeyman. Walker was never anywhere near a ranked fighter,and he beat a washed up version of party animal Spencer.Mildenberger had won just 1 of his previous 3 fights having been stopped by Leotis Martin in his previous outing, he was overweight for the Cooper fight and unranked.
Bonavena was already a ranked heavyweight.
no7 in66,no6 in67,no3 in68,n0 7 in69.

 

End of year ring magazine rating have Henry Cooper rated in their top ten:

1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1964*
1966*
1968*
1969

In December 1963 Brian London was rated number 9. His next fight (whilst ranked #9) London was defeated by Henry Cooper in a vacant European title fight in February 1964. Which has to make Henry world level at least once that year.

1966 Cooper beat Ring rated #9 Hubert Hilton.

1968 Cooper beat Mildenberger for the European title, still a big deal when there was just one world champion. Mildenberger had lost to Leotis Martin and Bonavena (who were both rated) but he was coming off a win and had himself been rated for several years and was even part of the 1967 WBA tournament.

So Cooper was a world class heavyweight for a good 10 years. It puts the shallow 1980s cruiserweight scene (which wasn’t really yet made up of world level fighters) into perspective.

 

Holy was bigger at heavy in the Tillis and Thomas fights when he fought DeLeon he was a cruiser, at that weight he wouldn`t have knocked out Tillis and Thomas, he had to bulk up to heavy first.

 

I feel Cooper would have stood a better chance of knocking out Jones than Ruiz did though, Cooper`s hook was faster than Ruiz and he applied pressure quicker also.

 

I feel Cooper`s hook was as fast as Holy`s and more powerful.

 

Cooper would catch Holy with a lot more shots than he caught Ali with, but he said he preffereed fighhting fighters that moved like Ali compared to swarmers like Marciano or Frazier, so I think the volume of Holy`s punching would bother Cooper, but Henry would have done much better v a cruiser version of Holy than he would of against a prime Marciano or Frazier who became champ while Cooper was coming to the end of his career.

 

1964
Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. George Chuvalo
6. Zora Folley
7. Karl Mildenberger
8. Roger Rischer
9. Eddie Machen
10. Doug Jones

1966
Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Ernie Terrell
2. Zora Folley
3. Thad Spencer
4. Floyd Patterson
5. Karl Mildenberger
6. Joe Frazier
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. George Chuvalo
9. Johnny Persol
10. Manuel Ramos

1968
Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Joe Frazier
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Oscar Bonavena
4. George Chuvalo
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jerry Quarry
7. Leotis Martin
8. Manuel Ramos
9. Alvin (Blue) Lewis
10. Floyd Patterson Bottom line Cooper was not a top ten ranked heavyweight for 10 years

 

Cooper was absolutely a world level fighter for ten years. He absolutely made the rankings across that time. Just because Henry did not feature at the end of the year ring magazine rankings does not mean he was not ranked earlier in the year or by another magazine or official body like the IBA. I believe He was rated in 1966 because he fought for the world title. and at the start of 1964. We know He was rated as early as 1958 and as late 1969.

When there was only one world champion, together, the British Empire championship and the European championship represented a large part of the world. Theoretically, fighters from those parts of the world had to come through those championships to challenge for the one world title. So far as heavyweight boxing was concerned Any fighter who was not American or South American qualified for belts held by Cooper. Those titles were the closest thing to a rival championship at that time.

In this era fighters like Dick Richardson, Brian London, Karl mildenberger, Bob Cleroux, Joe Erskine, ingemar Johansson, George Chuvalo, Jose Urtain all featured in the world rankings whilst being eligible for those titles. Top Americans like Floyd Patterson, Zora Foley And Eddie Machen all lost at one point to Europeans. I think of the relevant fighters of the era only Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston And Joe Frazier had winning records against European opponents.