1967 Muhammad Ali vs. 2007 Wladimir Klitschko

Prove it.

 

Ali was never KO'd. Look at the shots that Foreman landed on him in 74'!! You know Foreman, the guy Ali beat by 8th round KO in same fight. You know Foreman, the guy who became a World Champion in the modern era of 1994, THIRTY YEARS after Ali won his first championship!! THIRTY YEARS!!! Is that not adequate proof that greatness often transcends era's? Even without adding the equal technology, nutrition, and knowledge that I require when predicting fantasy fights, Ali casts a very long shadow.

So Povetkin can beat Wlad but Ali cannot? Could Povetkin have taken the Foreman that Ali fought in 74'? I seriouly doubt it.

Wake up people. The good old days are in the past, present, and future.

 

Because only one stoppage was legitimate and you know it. You keep getting on "Wlad supporters", yet you use the weakest of arguments to discredit them.
Fact: Wlad ran out of steam against Purity and gave it up, a rematch would be TKO or wide UD, and you know it. The 1st Brewster fight was bizarre and shrouded with suspicion, and you know it. Wlad returns to crush and humiliate Brew in a Bryd-like contest..
So your above statement is accurate- on the books- but it is conveniently misleading and again,you know it. You and others keep using the same misquided facts.
I personally think the Cooper knockdown was a flash knockdown, one that ALI could have recovered from normally.

 

I suppose I should have said "Many" Wlad supporters bring up Cooper. Other Wlad supporters, including ME!, look @ the overall careers of both fighters.

Misleading? Get real. There is nothing to mislead about here. I just mentioned he's been "stopped" 3 times, Not: KTFO, obliterated, or beatin into another world.

The 3 times he's been stopped:

1) Sanders pretty much destroyed Wlad. Thank you for not saying that was some sort of fluke.

2) Against Purity Wlad "ran out of steam and gave it up." That performance tells me quite a bit and is well worth mentioning in this debate. Granted Wlad was young, but it was still a significant loss, and running out of gas is not a reasonable excuse. "Gave it up." I hope you are wrong about that or Wlad's not as good as I think he is. Rematch? Purity's old and has been beaten like a drum by others

3) Brewster #1, "shrouded with suspician". It was a bizarre ending, but I do not know of any solid evidence that's been presented to suggest foul play. If you have some let me know. I think it's more likely that Wlad got tired, started freaking out about what happened against purity and probably had an anxiety attack and shut down. Great job in the rematch.

I'm a fan of Wlad, especially with his improvement over the last few years. He's a bit of an enigma though. I don't trust his chin or his psyche when he's pushed. I honestly could not see him beating the Ali of 67'.

 

Ali beat Jones, and KO'd Cooper TWICE, early in both fights.

If scoring a KD = near losing, then Wlad suffered a near loss to Peter, THREE TIMES in one fight.

 

Very good and accurate post, Wlad fans seem to be the most delusional when it comes to his losses. I watched the Brewster fight many times and came up with my conclusion, Wlad was hit by a couple really good body shots early on, mixed with the many power shots he hit Brewster not only made him tired, but confused and beat mentally when Brewster was still standing after taking his best shots. Many Believe never hurt Wlad before his panic attack, Brewster did hurt Wlad in the 3rd round with a stiff jab that made his legs buckle and forced him to clinch to get out of danger and the rest of the round, Ledderman gave Brewster that round becuase of it.

Wlads weak mind and chin will be exposed again, its just too bad the division is weak we may not see for another couple years, when it comes to Wlad's chin, history will repeat itself IMO.

 

I'm a Wlad fan too, and like you (and, I believe, most serious Wlad fans), I would pick Ali to win this, decisively.

 

Vlad's hand speed is no faster than a prime Foreman; it only appears that way because Vlad throws his shots straighter and with better technique. 1967 Ali would stay in the middle of the ring all night and see everything Vlad threw and be able to catch Vlad with straight shots and sidestep before Vlad could get off. I see a late round retirement from Vlad with him winning 2 rounds at best.

 

Fair enough.:good

 

And yet you voted for Klitschko to win by points.. :blood


I just don't get the logic. Everyone thinks Wlad would win because he is bigger. No mention of skill playing a factor here, just that he is bigger. Wlad's biggest victories are against the Boxing Banker and Chris Byrd, therefore he has the skill to beat Muhammad Ali.. that is quite a leap in talent.

The most compelling reason people have is that Cooper blasted Ali with a left hook. Don't forget that Ali was clowning heavily in the 4th round and purposefully not wanting to KO Cooper just yet, because he had originally predicted a round 5 KO. He had Cooper bloodied and severley beaten and would let off him and step back before he would fall - just being a show-boat. Cooper blasted him out of the blue and dropped him hard. Round 5 was the round Ali predicted and he came out and KOed him easily. It wasn't like Cooper was outfighting him or anything close to it, he landed a great punch on a clowning Ali.

People compare the one punch by cooper with the several KDs against Klit and say that it was more significant and think it is more indicitive of what would happen in the fight - it's just ridiculous. Ali was so much more talented and gifted than the Boxing Banker or Byrd, or whoever else Klit has ever faced, so there is ZERO reason to think he would beat Ali up - except that he is bigger..

 

That's all the reason the Klit fans need though...if you're taller you're better, simple as that. So I guess all WALDS losses came against guys the size of Valuev then atsch

Yeah Ali was clowning when he fought Cooper and learnt a painful lesson....when he fought Terrell he wasn't clowning and we all saw how brutal that was.

 

Thank you Mindspring.

 

It's always interesting to compare fighters who will never fight each other. However, the comparisons often leave out the fact that the training is completely different for a fighter today than 40 years ago. How would todays advanced technology affect Ali? If he had anything like PBF, he might be truly unstoppable. The key about Ali is his ability to train to exploit his opponent's weaknesses and adjust in a fight. The Klitschko brothers are big boys who have some skills and can hurt you. However, I'm not sure they have ever demonstrated any ability to switch gears in a fight they were losing or not effective. Ali has.
Ali would likely tie him up a lot and make him miss a lot of punches with his uncanny reflexes which would expose the stamina issues. Ali could also cut opponenets well. Klitschko would always have a punchers chance, but Ali could take a punch.

 

You're an idiot.
I'm talking about Ali vs Henry Cooper and you're talking about Foreman vs Ali. Pay a little more attention.
Foreman not being able to KO Muhammad Ali is one thing.
Henry Cooper almost pulling the upset of boxing history is another.

Are you still with me here ?
It's not about Foreman's post-Ali achievements.
I'm not here to **** all over Muhammad Ali's achievements and suck Wlad klit's dick... I don't think you get it.
You say:

"is that not adequate proof that greatness often transcends eras" ?

Are you talking about Foreman here or Ali? In any case , i'm not questioning Foreman nor Ali's careers and past achievements. You're on the defensive for no reason. Questioning Muhammad Ali's capabilities against a guy like Klit tarnishes in no way , the guy's achievements during his era. That's not even the point here. Same goes for every ATGs...such as Mariciano , Louis , Demspey etc..

However , i'm asking ANYONE here to give me a 100% valid proof that a guy such as Muhammad Ali (any versions) , would automatically beat Klitschko "FOR SURE"...

Can anyone actually prove this ? Can anyone back it up ?
Cause i certainly can't...The only thing i can do is observe both of these guy's ups and downs but it's quite difficult to be "certain" since we're comparing two very different eras.

Here's the arguments i could use in Ali's favor....
- Klitschko was defeated by Brewster , Puritty & Sanders
- Klitschko's got a glass chin
- Klitschko has no stamina.
- Klitschko is fighting in a "weak" era.
- Ali is universally recognized as one of the "best" in boxing history.

Arguments for Klitschko's defense...
- "weak" era or not. more than half of today's participants would have crushed a good majority of Ali's past opponents.

- Poor stamina or not , Klitschko seems capable to control his pace better than he used to several years ago. (we're talking about today's version of Wlad here).

- His TKO defeat against Puritty took place in 1998.
In other words , he was still green , not as experienced as he is today nor under Emmanuel Steward's training.

Guess what ? same **** happened even to Lennox Lewis back in 94 against McCall.

- Klitschko was then defeated in 2003 by Sanders.

a "prime" Sanders alone , would've killed a good portion of boxers during the so called "golden era". Whether we're talking about the 70's , 60's , 90's , 80's...it wouldn't have changed much.
Think i'm full of **** ?....let's take a quick example...

Let's pick the 90's...
one of the top dogs at the time was Riddick Bowe
Let me ask you this...If a mental midget such as Andrew Golota was able to dominate that guy like he did , is it really "far fetched" to believe that a "prime" sanders would have a decent chance to pull off a victory too ?...

Let's pick the 60's....
If a guy such as Henry Cooper (the guy already had 7 or 8 defeats before fighting Ali ) was able to rock and almost finish Muhammad Ali...(but thanks to Ali's corner & quick thinking...they gave an excuse to replace ali's gloves just in time so that he could recuperate enough to continue the fight )....Is it "far fetched" to believe that a guy as big and as skilled as a "prime" Sanders..would have a little chance to pull off a victory ?

Same goes for the 70's....Ken Norton pulled it off...Was Norton infinitly superior to Sanders ?

Continuing....
BREWSTER....Wlad was outboxing , outclassing him but Brewster still managed to pull it off. Some fans gave a questionable excuse saying that klitschko wasn't his usual self , that he was drugged..anyway , whatever the reason..it happened.

But guess what ?...
It also happened to the great Lennox Lewis.
Rahman vs Lennox remember ?
it happened to Tyson.. (Buster Douglas)
Happened to Foreman (Jimmy Young) and a bunch of others..

It's not like every single ATGs were immuned to this ****...
And Wlad won his ****ing rematch in a devastating manner.

That's precisely why i'm voting "draw / can't decide"....
Because there were no such thing as a big & skilled eastern euro back in the "golden era". (and let me remind you that back then , eastern euros were BANNED and couldn't participate with the pros )

Better yet , (since no one will agree with me anyway , might as well continue with my honest point of view on this issue..)...Wlad Klitschko's jab has nothing to envy to Larry Holmes' jab.

Not saying that Klitschko is an ATG...nor saying that he'd beat all of the "ATGs"...what i'm saying is that a guy like this , could / would have a solid chance to pull it off.
But again , we'll never be able to prove it. And i guess it's easier to have all the arguments in the world on your side when you're talking about Muhammad Ali. (even though he still was human and not a god.)

btw , as for Povetkin...I'm precisely talking about povetkin vs klitschko.
not Povetkin vs Foreman. Povetkin is still young but i firmly believe that he has the potential to beat wlad...He has one of the most impressive amateur record in boxing history and his pro career is looking good so far. (but maybe he'll get killed against Chambers..who knows )

also , since we're talking about the absurdity of Povetkin vs Foreman...
Let me remind you that as great as Foreman was...that didn't stop Jimmy Young from beating him in 1977. AGAIN...Foreman was human. an ATG , but human.
I'm not insinuating that Povetkin would've done the same. Just pointing the fact that he wouldn't be fighting against an invincible robot either...

But that's the problem with you ****in people...as soon as someone dares to say something else , it's a ****in "sacrilege".