1967 Muhammad Ali vs. 2007 Wladimir Klitschko

I have a feeling Bailey is waiting to pounce at the right moment.:deal

 

Answer me the questions on post 436, if you've got the time.

Give me HONEST answers and be serious, and I'll debate with you over the weekend.

I've got to go to sleep, it's 3am. :good

 

Or got hit in the face by Muhammad Ali.:yep

 

Klitschko by brutal KTFO. No other possibility. hell, Henry Cooper almost knocked him out prior to the Liston dive.

 

Glover, spot on. the only thing I would change is the Bruce Lee poster next to star trek.

 

Ali by decision, but Wladimir's size and great skill would be difficult for Ali. Ali's hand and foot speed would be the difference.

 

Glover,

How do you see a match between Corrie Sanders and Wlad going?

 

No freaking way, lol, ok fine, slim chance how about that? I am a fan if both fighters. Ali was something special beyond his size. Vlad is something special for his size. Regardless of going against popular opinion I think Vlad ud12 or Md12 or SD12 is a fair bet. Why? Well Ali' had a great jaw and was great getting off the canvas. No he wasn't invincible but I mean holy crap he was great. If Ali gets Vlad before Vladdy got his anxiety stuns problem sorted out after Brewster when he survived for the first time ever against Peter and finished strong, well if Ali gets Vlad before Vladdy figured out what Forman FAILED to figure out in Zaire against Ali (( how to remain cool and PACE oneself for a full fight rather than try to hurt ones opponent )) well Ali would have made Vladdy look foolish. However, after the Sam fight Vladdy gets more confidence and simply becomes a better fighter overall without doubt. Boring as hell? Yep Vladdy no Tyson etc, but really strong over all.

Everyone kinda wants to take Ali. Ali showed us that a big brute like Liston meant nothing when it came to speed, style, fearlessness and belief in ones self. He talked the talk and went out and walked the walk. Shocking it was. So naturally WE the PUBLIC have a idea of Ali as a giant slayer especially after Foreman got emotionally and physically destroyed in Zarie many years after Liston. So its easy to think that Ali's lighting speed etc would overwelm Vladdy. The thing I can't get past however, is how good OVERALL Vladdy is in so many areas COMBINED. Six six 240 and decently fast, strong, athletic, excellent technique etc, well there is a reason why Vlad is champ currently. That just does not happen in boxing very often. Last time it did was with Lennox and same result correct? Yes many questioned LL's heart , chin etc but in the end he kept on winning fights.

I could see Ali winning and maybe by knockout. As well by decision. However, I feel it would not be the easy win that most would hope for. As well I think there is a fair chance that Vladdy beats Ali/Clay by decision straight up in a boring or partially boring match whereby Ali has brief success and Vladdy holds and survives even loosing a point but winning enough rounds with his jab and short single shots that Ali survives but is slowly more and more flustered with.

 

most people on here say think size means everything.

so the top heavys of all time are Klits, Fury, Carnera, Valuev, Jess Willard etc MPDKSAB

 

First off Ali didn't have any cruiserweight fights. The division simply wasn't there then and if you want to say they'd be cruisers today one could always come back with they'd just fatten up and get on the juice like today's fighters if they fought today. Second, besides his chin Wlad has shown poor stamina when unable to dictate a fight. No fighter including Foreman dictated to Ali. Combine that with the fact Wlad need to be set the throw his punches and he'd have immense difficulty with this version of Ali. If this was the '74 and up version id pick Wlad, but Ali wins a UD here.

And forget that nonsense about Wlad automatically beating Sanders and Puritty in a rematch. If that were the case and he thought it could be done he would have chased the rematches. Even Sanders always wondered why Wlad never came looking for a rematch.

 

He only beat that bum Liston twice easily, nowhere near such luminary opponents as Wlad has faced. And Wlad's not going to hit prime Ali. Wlad throws primarily straight punches to the head(and mostly his jab because he's so terrified of opening up due to his bad chin and bad stamina), Ali doesn't have to worry about Wlad throwing body shots, doesn't have to worry much about hooks either. Easy work for him to dodge and counter Wlad's predictable offense.

 

If you call cleaning out the HW division bum-beating.

Watch Floyd and JMM. You might conclude JMM was an amateur. But only 'cause Floyd was so much better.

Then watch JMM's bouts with fighters not named Mayweather.


Same with Ali-Liston.

Watch Liston 's fights with opponents NOT named Clay/Ali.

Probably:
Brewster, Sanders, Briggs, Byrd, Haye, Valuev, Chagaev.

Possibly: Tyson, W Klitschko.

No, he wasn't.

The weights are all there in Boxrec.


Unless you could be thinking......nah, you couldn't be using height....

You're not that daft.

'cause if you were, you'd have Bernard Hopkins bigger than Mike Tyson or Rocky Marciano.

And you'd have Paul Williams bigger than Joe Frazier .

 

The first five I mentioned would all, with near certainty, lose to Liston.

That is to say, bigger.

How familiar are you with the HW division of that era ?

I need to know that before we waste any more time here.


Have you ever heard of Folley, Williams, Machen, Valdes, Patterson...

All of those I mentioned above.

No. I think a lot of (maybe most) folks would pick Sonny in this hypothetical.

So ?

Well you see, there is doubt. That's what makes these hypotheticals interesting. Tyson has no names on his resume of Liston's calibre. Many of Tyson's opponents were a bit intimidated just by Tyson's staredown.

Liston certainly wouldn't be. In fact, it would probably be Tyson who would walk back to his corner a bit nervous. I wouldn't say for sure, but prime for prime, this would be close to a 50/50 proposition.

(Outside a boxing ring, it would be a very different story.)

No. The division hadn't been invented yet.

To say that Liston fought "exclusively bums" tells me you know very little about the era, perhaps the subject.

Cleveland Williams.

Was coming off a string of a dozen wins, mostly by early KO


Eddie Machen:

Coming off a three win streak. One loss in the previous dozen.


Zora Folley.

A ten win streak ended by Sonny.


Floyd Patterson.

Three win streak. Undefeated at HW except for the (avenged) loss to Ingo.



Johnny Summerlin.

Three win streak ended by a green Sonny.


Just some.

Now I see where you get your 'boxing education"

Wlad is knocking on the door of greatness. I'm a fan of both K brothers. But don't embarrass yourself by claiming that his opposition was superior to Liston's.

Just for fun, post his best five wins and Liston's best five, and you might get an inkling.

Actually, that's very close to the truth. Vitali would have a very decent chance against Sonny. I would pick him to win. But Wlad, while a better boxer than Vitali, does not have his brother's physical or mental toughness. I can imagine his state of mind after getting the Liston Glower. I think Wlad will probably finish higher as an ATG than Sonny due to dominance in a weaker era, but h2h, I wouldn't give him much chance against Liston.

So, as time goes by, lightening fast footwork and handspeed count for less and less ? Could you explain why this would be so ?

If Byrd went back to the late 50's he would almost certainly lose to Liston.

And he wouldn't be one of Sonny's best five wins.

 

glover,

I am not insisting Wlad is a bum for losing to Sanders, I am just stating that you have to realize he is beatable, especially talking H2H with some of the greatest fighters in the division. Not saying he would lose to all of the divisions' all time best, but he would more than likely lose a couple. Heck, he has already lost 3 in his own era.. It would be very possible to lose that many in the Foreman/Ali/Liston/Frazier era. Or even the Tyson/Holy/Bowe/Lewis era.