1969 - Ali v Frazier

Hard to say who takes this one. Most Ali supporters will say he would have been right in the middle of his prime and virtually unbeatable if he wasn't exiled. Frazier was arguably at the peak of his career physically as a fighter before his cataract and hypertension concerns started to affect his career.

What bothers me the most is the constant use of the Cleveland Williams fight as the primary justification of Ali's greatness during his first title reign. Williams was shot at best after taking a gunshot to the abdomen and was far from the contender he was from the early part of the decade.

I believe Frazier would have given Ali problems at any point in his career and would have caught up to the 1960's Ali. The realism of this fight if it took place in 1969 is the fact that Ali was quicker on his feet and would have been able to get away from Frazier's pressure, staying out of trouble more than he did in the 1970's. I don't believe Ali would have been able to hurt Frazier like he did after his exile because he didn't sit down on his punches enough in the 1960's in order to land the heavier shots needed to slow Frazier down. In the 1960's Ali was more inclined to beat his opponents by shear volume of punches and Frazier would still have been a difficult target for him to hit cleanly.

The outcome, I'd say Ali by very close decision over fifteen rounds, scoring 8 to 6, with one round even. This fight could arguably go either way depending on who the judges are, which state the fight takes place and who the assigned referee would be. Frazier could land enough punches to warrant a decision victory but Ali probably prevails at this time in their careers from the advent of the judges placing more weight on the number of punches thrown rather than the quality of punches landed.

 

I would say Frazier wins, for two reasons:


1. As awesome as Ali was in the 60's, stylistically he was only pushed by George Chuvalo. And while he won most of rounds of that fight, he spent a lot of time on the ropes and taking body punishment. Frazier would force him there as well, and do a lot more work - better work. No one can run from Frazier, not even Ali.


2. He'd be coming off a massive winning streak and as it is human nature, he'll start underestimating his opponents, which would play to Frazier's favor too. Maybe Joe won't have that desire to destroy Ali as he had after what happened between them in reality, but the 60's Frazier was always in top shape.

Altogether it's a very close fight, but i'd slightly favor Frazier, with Ali taking the rematch. The big loser would be Foreman.

 

Has anyone actually watched Ali-Frazier 1 or the series recently? And how many have watched it in full?

Ali arguably won 4-5 of the first 6 rounds, he was giving Frazier a pasting early and easily outlanding him. Then Ali's lesser stamina came into play and a prime Frazier with superior stamina took over.

Ali actually won 2 more rounds. Frazier beat the crap out of Ali late in the first fight and you could give him 2 10-8 rounds, but theres only 3 points in it against a rusty, slower Ali with far less stamina.

How does '71 ALi compare to 60s Ali? The speed is notably slower. Ali has less spring in his step. He doesn't move as much and fades down the stretch, taking more rounds off. He simply doesn't have the stamina of the prime Ali. Give Ali the stamina he had in the 60s and Frazier is up against a much more formidable opponent

How the hell does Frazier beat a prime Ali when he can only win by 3 points and he only started winning rounds after an older Ali faded?

Now Ali won widish decisions (the thrilla in manila was stopped but it would have been a wide UD), when they rematched, still past Ali's prime when he adapted and won wide, Ali is further past his physical prime than Frazier but Frazier had slowed a little himself.

Prime Ali wins a wide UD or possibly stops Frazier, he was peppering Frazier in all those fights and a mor athletic Ali may land flusher shots for longer

 

The only way I can see Frazier winning this is if Ali grossly underrates him. But even though I think Ali would underrate Frazier somewhat he always came in in good shape before the exile. If he's in good shape a prime Ali has the recuperation powers and of course the will power to get out of a sticky patch.

Since I don't see Frazier KO'ing him, this is exactly what I see Ali doing after Frazier catches up with him in the middle rounds. He gets a second wind and pulls away in the last third of the fight to take a perhaps not very wide but clear UD.

Don't forget, if he had taken another 3 rounds in FOTC, he would have won. I can easily see Ali in 1969, when he very well might be better than he was even in 1967, taking at least those 3 rounds.

 

How do you know Ali's "lesser" stamina kicked in? Ali averaged 65 punches per round during the first 5 while moving almost constantly. When had he ever shown this kind of work rate before? When did he have to? How do we know he could've done this for 10 rounds in the 60's? We don't know.
What we do know is that Chuvalo forced him onto the ropes as early as round 4 with a similar strategy, in the 60's.

In the 70's, Ali was a lot slower and worse in general, but during the FOTC in '71, he was damn close to what he was in the 60's and showed more endurance than he ever had (to) before!

 

Ali moved far more in the 60s, which was a key strength, lesser stamina is the reason for lesser movement. You said hes slower which is true, but VO2 max stamina actually fades before maximal speed with age.

 

I can tell you when he showed that work rate later, and that was in Manilla. The punch output was greater in Manilla, so by that reasoning that would mean that both were closer to their prime then. And as we know, Ali edged that one.

Also, you can't watch the first 5 in isolation, beacuse he burned himself out during those rounds. He won maybe two of the next 10, coming close to being KO'ed in two of those 10 rounds. After the 5:th he spent most of his time on the ropes and threw few punches with power behind them.

In 1969, with no exile, I think he would have chosen another tactic to begin with, and I also think that he would have recuperated much better, coming back strong in the last five rounds or so.

 

Frazier made Ali miss a lot of those shots and I don't agree with you that he took the first five rounds of the FOTC. I remember the nasty left hook shot at the end of the 2nd round that Ali took right on the jaw and started shaking his head as if it didn't hurt? Also, don't forget the body shots Frazier landed in the early rounds.

The FOTC rematch in 1974 was the boxing hierarchy's way of saying Ali will win this fight no matter what happens. Frazier's only way to beat Ali in the rematch was to knock him out. Tony Perez's poor handling of the fight and the judges made sure that Ali would have at least one win against Frazier. This rematch was closer than most people think and I'd say Frazier would've won if it was a 15 round fight. Ali was tiring and Frazier was applying more pressure towards the end of the fight. Also, don't forget the 100 + times Ali pulled Joe behind the head which Perez turned a blind eye to.

Manilla wasn't a wipeout for Ali either. In fact, some reporters and sport writers had Frazier winning the fight just before the start of the 12th round and most will say that it was dead even going into the last three rounds. Again Ali was tiring, but Frazier eyes were closing. There's no doubt that Ali won the last three rounds before Futch stopped Frazier, but to say Ali was winning Manilla by a wide marging is not true.

1960's Ali was much lighter on his feet, but the common misconception is that Ali danced for the entire fight which is not true. He could throw more punches moving his feet in his first title reign, but Frazier was in just as good condition and would have caught Ali, especially on the ropes or in the corner. 1970's Ali hit much harder than the 1960's Ali because he had to sit down on his punches and actually fight, rather than dance and run away.

 

1. Yes that was a great shot but 1 shot doesn't take a round after Ali had been tagging Frazier with about 60 head shots. Frazier did land some painful bodyshots, but his head shots were few and far between in the early going

2. These are merely excuses, Ali won the subsequent fights fair and square, ofcourse they weren't easy fights

3. The point is Ali would not be in Frazier's range of fire if hes moving, he won't move the entire fight and will take some shots, but nowhere near as many. You say Ali wasn't as much of a puncher in the 60s, well he certainly stunned Liston in their first fight and scored much more impressive stoppages. Saying Ali just danced and run away is foolish and under analytical

 

Frazier. For details see other Ali thread.

 

What makes you think that? Just because it was the 60's doesn't mean he's got a magic crystal ball that will tell him he's going to choose the wrong strategy by going after Frazier early.

 

The reason I think this is because he still was unsure of how much his body would give at that point. Against Quarry he came out dancing, but said himself that he was very tired after only 3 rounds, so against Bonavena he comes out flat footed and quite cautious.

So the reasoning before FOTC might well be that since he didn't know exactly how he would manage if he moved a lot, it would be better for him to utilise Fraziers slow start and come out guns blazing. This is not a bad plan, at all, but it is kind of a contingency plan because the facts was not all there.

If they had met in 1969 Ali would have known exactly how much he could get out of his body, and even though I think he still would start fast, I don't think he would've turned it into the same slugfest. Probably more like the second fight, but with less holding.

As I said, I still see him tiring after 5 or so rounds, amazed that Frazier still comes on so strong. But in this case he has the recuparative powers to get back into it, and he wouldn't stay as much on the ropes.

 

I cant believe the votes are even at 10-10.

All you have to do is watch how an Ali who was 2 yrs older than the one we are discussing + only had 2 warm up fights after 3yrs & 7months out of the ring did vs peak Frazier.

Ali of 69 by clear UD.

Someone mentioned the Chuvalo fight as a way of how Frazier might beat Ali but 2 things......
1. styles make fights so all fights are different.
2. Ali never respected Chuvalo as a puncher like he did/would Frazier, if Ali got on his toes then Chuvalo aint catching him nowhere near as often as he did... lets not forget, Ali only lost 1 or 2 rds anyway vs George.

No way Frazier beats Ali in 69 without any exile, thats not happening.

Ali W15 UD Frazier (9-5-1)

 

He never danced for an entire 15 round fight. I'll agree with the fact that the best years of Ali will never be known and it's safe to say he would be at his best at this time. However, Frazier was peaking at that time too and still would have caught up to Ali. I'd say this fight could go either way, logically with Ali winning a very close 15 round decision. I wouldn't bet against Frazier either and it wouldn't surprise me that he'd knock Ali down worse than the one he took against Cooper on route to a UD. Neither man is stopping the other at this time in their careers.