1969 - Ali v Frazier

This sounds reasonable. Do you think it would be as dramatic and entertaining as FOTC?

 

Ali with his legs 100% and his stamina at full rev beats Frazier imo,he needed more actual rounds before taking on Joe for the FOTC.Taking nothing away from Frazier ,the night he beat Ali ,he would have been life and death for just about anyone ,with the exception of Foreman and Liston,imo,that night in the Garden Frazier walked through walls.

 

I think Ali rather comfortably. The 1967 Ali was the best heavyweight I've ever seen, and 68-69 would've been his absolute peak. It would've been the perfect blend of the speed of the 60s and strength of the 70s (as well as remaining active). Ali by decision, about 10-5.

 

Ali underestimates Frazier and pays the price, he would not if they fought agian and would win. Basically Ali sees Frazier as a plodder instead of a non stop fighting machine.

 

I think Ali would win, but it would be a tough match in 1969.

Ali lost some foot speed, and that is key for keeping his distance. The Ali in 70's danced and moved a lot less. But Ali in the 60's was blazing fast with his hands and his feet, and seemed to take less breaks on the ropes. Taking breaks on the ropes is a real no-no vs Frazier, and it’s no accident that Frazier best round in the 11th happened because Ali took a break or got caught on the ropes. In fact, I think Frazier was close to a TKO stoppage in round 11. I think the Ali of the 1960's is less likely to make this type of mistake due to fatigue.

In truth, Frazier had some trouble vs bigger boxer types. Indeed Frazier had his hands full vs a fat Buster Mathis, and was down on the cards until round 7 until Mathis stamina gave out and Frazier came on.

Frazier to win, I think Ali had to tire. The chances of that happening pre-exhile IMO are less then they were in 1971.

 

Frazier. This would always be a styles disadvantage for Ali in this fight whatever stage these fighters are at. The Frazier camp always had a plan to beat Ali. The plan was to make him punch down so he'd be open for the left hook. Also it was to apply non-stop pressure, let Ali tire to come on in the later rounds to take the fight.

While Ali would be in his prime in 69, he wouldn't be able to dance around for a full 15 rounds. He would be driven to the ropes and attacked to the body which would tire him out. He would win the early rounds though but would still drop the majority of them in the remainder of the fight. Let's not forget either this would be Frazier's prime too and would be in top physical shape. Frazier wins by UD in a fight that looks a lot like the FOTC.

 

If you are under six feet and fight out of a crouch ,and your opponent is six three,you don't have a plan about getting him to punch down ,its pretty much a given. As to body punches tiring Ali out ,he took body shots as well as any heavy I have seen ,from hitters like Foreman ,and sluggers like Chuvalo .The Frazier camp's plan worked once ,in three fights against a man who had had 18 rds of boxing in nearly 4 years,and was coming back at 29 ,the same age as Frazier was when Foremen nearly decapitated him and everyone said Frazier was shot and past it as a excuse for the defeat.

 

Yeah, people seem to forget that Ali beat Frazier 2 times out of 3 in real life, while arguably being further removed from his prime on all 3 occassions. Claims are being made that an absolutely peak Ali at 27 wouldn't be able to keep away from Frazier, even though a faded 32 year old version did a pretty good job of it.

 

Pre-FOTC 1969 to FOTC 1971 Frazier was one of the best heavyweights in the history of the sport. He would have been a much tougher assignment for Foreman and I wouldn't put it past Frazier at this point in his career to KO both Foreman and Liston inside 15 rounds.

There's a huge difference between any version of Frazier prior to the FOTC and the version that showed up fat and past it in 1973 against Foreman.

 

Frazier was 8 1/2 lbs over his weight for the "Thrilla in Manilla",only 2 lbs over the weight that he scaled for the second Quarry fight,and at 29 he was the same age as Ali was when he came out of nearly 4 years enforced retirement.Frazier was 1/2 a pound HEAVIER than Foreman for the second fight,in which he lasted longer,you think,he could maybe have kod both Foreman and Liston ,I don't,its a difference of opinion.

 

Ali didn't have documented cataract and blood pressure problems during his early career. Frazier had these serious medical problems right before the FOTC and was encouraged by Futch and Durham to retire soon after.

Indeed there is a big difference between 1967 Ali and 1971 Ali. We all know that the layoff affected his reflexes, timing and handspeed. However, Frazier beat the closest version of Ali to his prime, and Ali himself said that the contenders he fought in the 1960's had nowhere near the skills or atheletic ability of Frazier, Norton and Foreman with the exception of Floyd Patterson.

Yeah, I'm not making excuses for Joe Frazier, because a scared George Foreman did exactly what he was told to do in order to beat him. Use his superior size and strength and keep Frazier from getting close. Now if Frazier came into the Foreman fight exhibiting the same conditioning and mental focus he gave Ali, it's certainly logical that Joe would have lasted a lot longer against Foreman than the 2 round beating he endured. Look at the difference betweeen the 205 lb Frazier of 1969 and the 214 lb Frazier in 1973. I don't think Foreman would have been able to keep a FOTC or pre FOTC conditioned Frazier off of him for more than 5 rounds before tiring. Ali sat on the ropes in 1974, put little to no pressure on Foreman, and George tired, punching himself en route to getting knocked out in 8 rounds.

Frazier still gives Ali problems at any stage of their careers and a prime version of Frazier gives Foreman the same problems he gave Ali in the FOTC. George may have Joe on the canvas once or twice early in the fight, but I'd bet on Foreman slowing down in the middle rounds and losing to Frazier by UD or late KO. Joe's underappreciated body work would be the difference.

 

He lasted longer because he was smarter and showed better tactics in the second Foreman fight. This Frazier was completely shot, wearing contact lenses so he could see. He tried to jab and box from the outside and did fairly well for a round or two. He didn't have the physical tools to carry out his game plan laying on the ropes for many stretches in that fight. At the same point Durham and Futch's biggest mistake with Frazier's career IMO was not developing his right hand more than they did.

 

The Foreman fight proved one thing if nothing else,Frazier only knew one way to fight ,and his physical stature demanded that he adopt it ,come forward get in range and keep punching,swarmers like him match up badly against big bombers like Liston and Foreman ,imo ,plus he did not have the very top level of power imo,he was a saturation puncher who wore you down,most of his kos over the top echelon were scored with the opponent fully conscious but defenceless,he did not seperate many top men from their senses in the dramatic way that Liston and Foreman did.If you had a huge punch and were physically stronger than Frazier ,plus durable I think you beat him,knock him down he gets up bangs his gloves together and comes straight back for more punishment,he knew no thing else,it was good enough for very good fighters like Quarry ,fast moving steppers like Ellis who lacked the power to put him away,crude sluggers like Bonavena and less than valiant hopefuls like Ramos,against Foreman and his earlier prototype Liston it would not be enough,imo.Frazier was truly great in two fights the first and third Ali fights but that is his legacy ,his results are a little thinner five fights with atg's ,wins 1, losses 4.

 

It wasn't just body shots that would tire Ali out, it was Frazier's nonstop pressure. Yes, if you watch the FOTC, Frazier would crouch down to bait Ali into punching downward, then Frazier would come over the top with a left hook. This happend repeatedly combined with steady work to the body and consistent nonstop Frazier. Foreman didn't do body work like Chuvalo and Frazier did to Ali, he just was swinging wildly at Ali's head looking for the knockout and then he tired out and was KO'd himself.

Frazier was not at his best for Foreman, he came in overweight and had a some tough wars in the past. Ali was not shot like Frazier was because he did not take the type of punishment Joe did in his career. Joe's style was to come straight forward and that caused him to take a lot more punishment than Ali.

 

Styles make fights. In the second fight he chose to box rather than come straight forward against Foreman the second time around. You can't even compare a 1976 totally shot Frazier against a prime beast that he was in the late 60's.

Styles make fights. Frazier beat Ali when they were both not far removed from their absolut primes. Frazier gets destroyed by Foreman. Foreman gets KO'd by the same Ali that Frazier beat. This had virtually nothing to do with weight once he was so far past his best. If he came in at his prime weight, he still would have lost.