1969 - Ali v Frazier

He did not know one style of fighting. Watch the first Foreman fight and then the second. You'll see a difference in strategy in his fighting style. In the first he just bored in at him and did his usual thing. In the second, he just boxed him but he was so far past it, he couldn't sustain it and he was KO'd. The second fight also shows that even an old Frazier was able to switch his style up and fight successfully for a bit.

To say he was great in two fights is a crime, you seriously underrate him and you should watch more fights than just the Ali trilogy and his fights with Foreman. He beat Bonavena, a durable fighter with a good punch who was only stopped once in his career by the same Ali Frazier beat. It takes more than that to beat a prime Frazier, he had so much heart and determination you could not put the guy away. Foreman can tell you that, he was gassing out and was worried that Joe wasn't staying down. Buster Mathis was another fairly durable guy who had a decent punch and was blown out by Frazier.

 

I'd say Frazier. Ali wouldn't be able to do anything against Frazier's left hook. Frazier seemingly landed that punch at will in all three of their match-ups.

 

I know. This ridiculous bull**** that goes "what he did in round 1 he could have done for 15 rounds years before". I certainly never saw 15 rounds of constant movement in any fight- and I have virtually every one one of Ali's that I know is available- and certainly every fight since Doug Jones in 1963. Even so, it's a tad easier sticking and jogging around a slow-motion mummy like Terrell for 15 rounds than someone with the stamina and punch-volume of a Frazier. This is a definite pick 'em contest and, like I said in another thread, an Ali slighly underrating Joe picks up his first 'L' of his career. In fact, I don't think Ali would have started as fast if they'd met and the fight was on a far smaller scale neither.

 

I haven't seen anyone say that Ali would dance for 15 rds. What some are saying (me included) is just that he would move more and spend less time on the ropes than he did in the 70's. That's hardly unreasonable, is it?

And considering that he gave Frazier hell in FOTC (and won the two subesquent fights) it hardly seems unreasonable that this bit of extra speed and stamina would have made the difference, either.

This is not the same as saying that Ali would dance rings around Joe and doing the Ali shuffle between continually punishing him with blistering combinations. Because he wouldn't.

 

I agree with you that Frazier KO's were mostly from the result of steady wear-down pressure, especially to the body. However, I wouldn't want to be on the receving end of the shot that fractured George Chuvalo's orbital bone, or the body shot that KO'd Ramos.

I think Joe's power is underrated and underappreciated, and Ali's chin is underrated and underappreciated.

I disagree with you like OBCBoxer about Frazier fighting only one way, moving forward. Before Futch came into the picture, Frazier was more of a stand up boxer that worked his hook of the jab and threw a better than decent right hand. Futch started to make him bob and weave more because Bonavena had him in trouble early. Joe knew how to move and box, he just prefered to come forward and pressure his opponent with body shots.

 

Given that Frazier was knocked down 8 times inside7 rounds how well do you think he did in the 2 fights and which rounds do you think he won?

 

I actually feel sorry for Joe whenever I watch those fights. The first time he's mashed to a pulp, the rematch Foreman looks like he's bored then finally decides to end when he feels ready.

 

It isn't unreasonable. But I notice in your second paragraph you fall into the old "he won the next two fights", remembering his exile from Fight I, yet seemingly ignoring Joe's pasting by Foreman before the Ali rematch. You think that maybe Frazier wasn't quite at his best in 1974 perhaps? It's not all about Ali, Ali, Ali you know. :huh

 

I own ,or have seen the following Frazier fights.
Bonavena x2
Machen
Chuvalo
Jones[last 2 rds]
Doyle[last rd]
Mathis
Ramos
Quarry x2
Ellis x2
Foster
Ali x3
Daniels
Stander
Bugner[watched it from ringside]
Foreman x2
Is that enough footage to form an opinion?
Concerning Frazier's power he KO'D NOTE KO'Dthe following fighters.
Foster 2rds[lh]
Ziggy1rd [mismatch]
Abe Davis5-22-1- 1rd
Mel Turn bow6-3-0 ko1rd

Don Smith 9-4-1 ko3rds
Chuck Leslie11-9-1[ at 177 a LH]ko3rds
Memphis Al Jones 3-5-2 [180 another lh]1rd
Doug Jones 188ko6rds[ a decent win but Jones was 2 fights from retirement and had lost his last 2 fights]
Jeff Davis29-11-1ko5rds [Davis was kod in 1rd by Cooper]
Frazier wore down Mathis till he ran out of gas, Mathis was in front after 7 rds.Mathis was not ranked by the RING magazine .
Chuvalo was tkod with facial damage ,on his feet
Bonavena two fights NEVER DROPPED
Ramos tkod on his feet essentially he QUIT
Daniels tkod on his feet
Stander ditto BOTH UNRANKED
Doyle tkod on his feet
Quarry tkod two fights on his feet
Machen tkod
on his feet
Ellis retired on stool and tkod on his feet two fights. Futch did NOT change Frazier's style Yank Durham turned Frazier around in the PAL gym Frazier started trying to jab his way in from an upright stance Durham explained to him his short reach and lack of height meant the had to swarm and adopt the crouch as he came in.Read "COME OUT SMOKIN "by PHIL PEPE,for confirmation of this.Futch took over, AFTER ,Durham died,by then Frazier's style was MADE for GOOD. By the way "durable " Bonavena was dropped by among others Ellis,and Folley as well as Ali NONE of these were particularly hard punchers.

 

I'am talking about 1976 not when he first got his start at the PAL, that has nothing to do with it. In 1976, instead of coming straight in at Foreman he chose to box him. By the way, getting KD happens, I ask you, were these flas KDs or was he seriously in trouble?

 

I have no doubt Frazier would ALLWAYS give Ali hell.Just dont' think he shapes up stylistically against big ,durable heavyhanded bangers very well.So for me Liston and Foreman bounce him around like the Easter Bunny.I think the beating he would get from a prime Liston would be ugly,Liston while not in Foremans class at cutting the ring would not need this ability ,Joe comes in and once he gets past that pole of a jab,Sonny uppercuts him and fires short hooks from both hands to knock out his remaining teeth. George needed Joe out at range for his sweeping hooks ,hence the constant pushing backwards.Sonny would like Joe coming close,where his suspect footwork would not be a disadvantage.,he would plaster Frazier's body like he did FLoyd's and move up to the head for a ko ala Williams.Frazier being as game as he was could be permanently damaged.

 

I would like to see some other heavyhanded durable bangers that would beat Frazier, please name more.

 

By the way Liston is not as a blow out as you think. If he doesn't put him away early he can find himself knocked out.

 

Bonavena was certainly in more trouble in those fights than he was in EITHER Frazier fight.Eddie Futch was a ring strategist ,possibly without peer,but he was not responsible for Frazier's innefective attempt to take Foreman into the later rounds and drown him ,which was Frazier's plan .Foreman had a very good jab when he chose to use it ,there is NO WAY Frazier outboxes Foreman from distance,and NO WAY he outmuscles him on the inside.SO , HOW DOES HE WIN? Answers on a post card to www. Pipe Dream /Wishful Thinking.com.

 

How was he going to take him in the later rounds? By BOXING him which is WHAT FRAZIER DID. I never said that Frazier would ever beat Foreman, I said that in an earlier post that it was just a bad styles matchup.