1969 - Ali v Frazier

It's more of a case of what you want to believe I think.

 

Learn the meaning of the word 'seldom' Einstein- and while you're at it, get rid of that minger from your avatar.

 

I agree with this one. :good

 

I'm not saying he wan't in bad shape after the Ali fight, it's the mental battering he took from Foreman as much as anything. Hemust have known then that he would never again be 'The Man'. His ego must have been shattered. It's not an early loss thing like Louis-Schmeling, which can be put down to inexperience, it was a loss when he was basically at the height of his invincibilty. And it was the manner of defeat which, like I mentioned earlier, he did very well to ovecome and compete at the top again.

 

Agree with you McGrain. I firmly believe if Frazier came into the Foreman fight in the shape he was prior to the FOTC, as he showed against Bob Foster, George wouldn't have knocked him out in two rounds in 1973. I'd put my money on this Frazier to stop Foreman inside 10 rounds in a much better performance. Frazier wasn't prime, focused and in top shape for George Foreman the first time they fought. The second time, he was completely shot, changing his tactics only to last 5 rounds.

Liston wouldn't have an easy time with a prime Frazier either. Some on this forum say Sonny destroys Joe easier than Foreman did which I think is absurd. First of all, Liston wasn't that much taller than Frazier so there's not a significant height advantage. Secondly, there's a huge difference between the pressure that Frazier would put on Sonny compared to the non-pressure of a scared Floyd Patterson. Joe woudn't be intimidated and I'd say it's reasonable that he stops Liston inside 12 rounds, with himself possibly getting knocked down by Sonny once or twice early in the fight.

Again, take nothing away from George Foreman's two wins against Frazier. He did what he was told to do and executed his game plan to perfection. Sure, he had some help from Mercante, allowing him to push, grab and shove Frazier around which is not boxing. I think it's unfair to say that Foreman beat the same Frazier that beat Ali in 1971. There's no comparison between the pre FOTC Frazier and the 1973 version that Foreman KO'd. The body attack of Frazier would be the difference and both Liston and Foreman slow down considerably and are stopped after the early rounds IF they don't knock out Frazier early. It wouldn't happen against a prime Joe Frazier.

 

Take nothing away from George, yet give him no credit whatsoever.

 

Everyone knows beating Joe Frazier was one of Foreman's greatest wins. I give him all the credit that is due for keeping Frazier from close quarters and doing everything within his skillset to do that. He showed awesome right hand power with a solid jab that night. What you seem to be forgetting is the fact that he had help from Mercante, and he didn't fight the same Frazier that beat Ali over 15 rounds. This was a depleted Frazier that exhibited none of the intense pressure, head movement and body attack that he was made famous for.

 

I'm not forgetting- I know. He wasn't strong enough to compete with Foreman. It's that simple. Also, he started slowly in many fights, so this 'intense pressure, etc' argument doesn't wash. He wouldn't have beaten Foreman while he had a hole in his arse.

 

I think Mohamed Ali was a good boxer. I think Joe Frasier was a good boxer.

 

Frazier is my all-time favorite fighter and I'll defend him to the death but there is no way he ever beats Foreman. He is tailor-made for Foreman.

 

How many times did Mercante hit Frazier? I must have missed it! Actually Mercante who was a great referee could have stopped the fight earlier imo.
Harry Gibbs the English referee was in Kingston and tipped to get the job of reffing the Foreman Frazier fight,ultimately it went to Mercante ,at dinner after wards Mercante asked Gibbs if he thought he should have stopped the fight earlier,Gibbs said he thought he should have.No excuses, Frazier got his head handed to him it was George hitting him not Mercante.

 

It's pretty stunning how biased this is against Frazier.

1. A number of your "stopped-on-his-feet" (egad!) add-ons are shamefully misleading as an effort to discredit Frazier's power. For example, Ramos was put down hard by a Frazier double left hook and climbed to his feet wobbly and helpless. Ellis didn't "retire on his stool," but rather Dundee didn't let him come out for the fifth after Frazier dropped him twice and nigh decapitated him in the fourth.
2. Bonavena was not dropped by, "among others," Ellis, Folley and Ali- I'm pretty positive they're it. If you think someone else dropped him, let's see some evidence. Folley, who was a fairly hard puncher, dropped a green Bonavena once in their first fight after delivering a one-sided pasting to him for seven rounds, Ellis decked him twice in their encounter when Bonavena came in overconfident and barreled headfirst into his counters, and Ali finally managed to put him away in the 15th round of a grueling epic. This amounts to the ONE stoppage loss in Bonavena's 68-fight career. Joe Frazier, Ron Lyle, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Leotis Martin and others could not manage even one stoppage over him between them. Ali managed to do him in after tattooing him for 14 rounds, and he dealt quite a few durable guys their first stoppage losses by grinding them down. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that Bonavena was durable.
3. The very fact that Bonavena is on the list belies the underlying bias behind the whole thing- at the top, you specifically indicate that it is a list of fighters Frazier "KO'd- NOTE KO'D," and yet you include Bonavena, who he DID NOT KO, on the list, just for another chance to take a stab at Frazier's power.
4. You're applying ridiculous and unmeetable standards in order to make an absolutely brilliant record appear lackluster. NO ONE'S knockout resume consists entirely of early-round 10-count knockouts over prime, full-sized, ranked heavyweights. Why don't we go through Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, George Foreman or any other great puncher's knockout resume, discount every knockout which wasn't early enough, wasn't a 10-count, wasn't over a prime opponent, wasn't over a big-enough opponent, or wasn't over a ranked opponent, and see how much we're left with?