1969 - Ali v Frazier

Duran was a Lightweight fighting a Welterweight in Leonard plus he was 31.He was a Ex Lightweight fighting at Light Middle,when he lost to Benitez,again he was 31.He was 33 when he lost to Hearns at LM a man 6 1/2 inches taller in his absolute prime.He was 32 when he lost to atg Hagler in a competitive fight at middle weight 3 weights above his Champion best.He

was 37 when he lost to Leonard at Middle weight,again 3 weights above his best weight.Frazier was 29 when Foreman destroyed him at his natural weight division ,Heavyweight,he conceded just 21/2 pounds to Foreman.in the rematch he was 32 and 1/2 a pound the heavier man.Frazier was 31 to Ali 's 33 in the rematch At all times Frazier was fighting in his natural weight class ,whereas Duran was several divisions above his best ,plus he was in his middle to late 30's SEE THE DIFFERENCE? Duran is an All Time P4P Great ,Frazier , struggles to make most peoples top ten at heavyweight,to put them as equals or to compare their win loss records against ATG'S is absurd.imo.

 

Frazier hurt him worse than Foreman and Liston did, are they even lower than the sub-all time puncher that Frazier is?

 

How can you say his title opposition was weak? Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena are all excellent fighters. They are superior to Shavers and Lyle, so how can you say that those fighters would've added much to his resume? Norton is greater perhaps, but we all know that Norton doesn't stand a chance against Frazier unless he's shot.

 

If he'd beat Lyle and Shavers people probably wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his chances against punchers. A convincing victory over Lyle could be seen as a proof that his bad losses to Foreman more had to do with how he was in those particular fights than how he was in general.

 

Which one went to hospital for a week Ali or Frazier?
I think Ali was more out of it when Cooper dropped him than when Frazier floored him ,Cooper's chance went when the bell rang, Frazier had his chance but could not score a ko,that is my opinion,now stop trying to rile me, you Frazierfile!

 

Frazier only had the spurious NY Title when he met Bonavena and Quarry,which he had won in a fight with unranked Mathis.His defences were against a LH with a consistant record for losing against every heavyweight of any stature,his marvellous win over Ali who had fought 18 rds of combat in nearly 4 years ,and two wins over UNRANKED Daniels and Stander,when he fought another man in the top ten he got obliterated.So Mendoza has a valid point imo.

 

First you're trying to discredit Frazier for not doing as much damage as Cooper, then when i show that Foreman, Liston and Shavers did even less damage than Frazier, you change subject.


I'm not trying to rile you, and yes, i'm a big fan of this fearsome destroyer:

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I have to say regardless of stats i have always considered Frazier a BIG puncher. He was considered a fearsome hitter in his day, and i believe modern perception has lost balance with just how hard he did bang. It's hard to categorise but i'd likely rate him on the second tier of great heavyweight punchers.

 

Regretably , I think Shavers might have done quite a bit of damage and lasting damage at that.Ali was young when he put a hiding on Liston.if less damage means failing to knock a man down then ok ,but Cooper had Ali on ***** street for a moment, I dont think Frazier did with his knockdown punch,though he certainly had him all but down in the 11th.

 

I would agree with second tier,but not in the Louis ,Dempsey,Foreman ,Baer,Liston class.

 

Personally Dempsey wouldn't make my top tier. I'd put Frazier his equal for single shot power. Shavers should be there too. You've got the jist tho, Liston and Foreman and the like i'd have a bee's dick ahead of Frazier but Joe's right up their clacker tier wise. Get the absolute pinnacle punchers out of the way and Joe is there hollering loudly.

It didn't help his cause that he only had KO power in one hand. If he had the balance between the two hands of a Tyson he would have cut a frightening swathe and finished a lot more opponents a lot faster. Mainly having one hand to avoid helped opponents no end with respect to not getting poleaxed.

 

I like Ali with a clear, yet hard earned, UD in 1969. We never saw the 68-69 Ali which would have been a thing of beauty. Also consider the fact that Ali naively rushed, against his camp's wishes, into the first Frazier fight a mere 90 days after Bonavena. IMHO Ali would have copped a UD had they waited until say June of 71 to fight...

 

Mcvey, I pity you. Defending the truth calls for sacrifices.

Battle on.

 

Chris Pontius is a Frazier fan ,and we spar rather tongue in cheek,he is a terrific poster insightfull and objective, I respect him a lot ,though we often disagree .