1971 Joe Frazier v 1962 Sonny Liston ?

The trouble with the bolded is that this simply won't happen. Frazier chugs forward relentlessly, he has no other way. Liston can't be patient when under fire from a non stop attacking Frazier. He's going to have to punch him off. As you said earlier, Frazier is good getting under jabs so Liston's going to unleash those uppercuts. Patterson was another crouching fighter right in front of Liston and there was no real patience on Liston's part - he simply smashed him out of the ring. Foreman had Joe up and down like a yoyo and Joe still kept coming, straight into more bombs and knockdowns.

The reason so many settle on thinking Liston beats Frazier because of the way George did is a blend of things. They see Joe just keep on coming when blind Freddie could see it was disaster after the initial lack of success. Three knockdowns in the first round and he comes racing out at Foreman in the second. He's only got one dimension, even if it's a helluva dimension. They also see Joe, in his only fight against an ATG puncher, get belted right out of the ring. So the questions are not only there, they are quite loud. Modernists and size queens might say "deafening".

I'll tell you Joe's biggest problem in fights like this, that no-one ever talks about. His big weakness against bombers. Joe Frazier didn't clinch. He either couldn't or simply wouldn't. Five knockdowns against Foreman and not one attempt to clinch, buy time, or tie up. It's a weakness, a flaw. He would have been an even better fighter, especially per H2H battles, if he could clinch and buy a little time when hurt. This wouldn't have saved him against George, but it opens up the chances of others in imaginary battles.

Stylistically Joe is murder for boxers, the Larry Holmes, Ali, Young, Usyk, Tunney type guys. He's in his element, much like Norton. Quality bigger men that have ATG power are a legitimate question mark for him tho.

I hate dissing and questioning a great like Joe, but it is what it is.

Cheers

 

Liston beat Floyd Patterson for the title in 1962...stopped him again in 1963...QUIT while sitting on his stool as CHAMPION in Feb. 1964 against Cassius Clay in Miami...and then took a DIVE up in Maine in May 1965 against Ali. Frazier won the Gold Medal in the 1964 Olympics ...defeated Buster Mathis...Doug Jones...Eddie Machen...Oscar Bonavena...George Chuvalo...Manual Ramos...Jerry Quarry...Jimmy Ellis...Bob Foster...Joe Bugner...Muhammad Ali in the FOTC in 1971. That Joe Frazier in 1971 was on a mission...Ali was not going to win that fight. Joe left EVERYTHING he had in the ring that night at MSG. You would have had to kill Frazier that night to beat him. Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Liston was not that type of fighter...when the going got tough...he quit. Liston would have been hit by FOTC Frazier more times than he'd ever been hit before. Joe was one of the the great "swarmers" in heavyweight history...Liston was slow...plodding and predictable...wasn't mentally tough...Joe wins...

 

Excellent point re Liston not applying himself so much in sheer physical terms.

The perception of Liston’s “strength” was more borne out of his power, resilience and consistent go forward.

In fact, at least once during their first fight Ali found it easy to push Liston off via Sonny’s shoulders - simply because Ali was inclined to use his sheer strength while Liston wasn’t at all.

Ironically for all the bull ****, unsubstantiated claims of Liston being a dirty fighter - Sonny actually fought very clean - he didn’t hold, clinch etc. - he replied purely on his boxing skills, power and resilience - and even Ali falls somewhat short when compared to Liston in those regards.

 

Totally agree that Liston could punch very well at range and in close.

The Besmanoff and Cleveland Williams fights are just two examples that attest to that fact.

If Foreman eclipsed Liston in power at any time it was because George went all in more than Sonny.

Liston deferred to his skill set and stamina first and foremost but could oblige a punch out if put upon him.

That’s why, against a leery opponent who opted to run, Liston was able to box out and soundly defeat a boxer like Machen over the 12 round route - and still looking as fresh as a daisy at fights end.

Whatever excuses anyone chooses to muster for Eddie who was in no short supply of his own excuses - if he had actually opted to properly engage Liston, he would’ve been an absolute goner.

For Eddie, who fought well dirty himself during the fight, he achieved his best possible outcome against Liston - he survived Sonny.

 

For many of the reasons given in this thread, I do not like Joe Frazier's chances against Sonny Liston.

 

Sonny Liston in his best form circa '59-62 should have an edge. He has 'wreckin balls' in his gloves not too many would want to move in on. I think Liston has to be the hungry, driven contender form to have a realistic chance against a fighter like Frazier.

Any version of Liston that lived in Las Vegas is losing to Frazier by stoppage. Vegas aged Sonny in dog years. Idk how many left hooks to the body Frazier would have to land before Sonny decided there's easier ways to make a living.

Peak vs Peak its a good fight. Even if Liston knocks Joe down i dont expect it to go like the Foreman fight. Sonny would be more measured if Frazier got up firing lefhooks. It would go some rounds. Joe would have some oppprtunities to get his own firepower off.
I'd say Sonny Liston mid round TKO in a classic slugfest in which Liston would be hurt as well and have to dig deep.

 

Agree 100% It would be a virtual carbon copy of Frazier's fight against Foreman--even FOTC Frazier wouldn't be able to cope with Liston's battering ram left jab, strength, and technical skill. Joe's style would be kryptonite against a fighter like Sonny!

Look at the pummeling Joe took in the first few rounds of the FOTC--now imagine Frazier having the same kind of start against a prime Sonny Liston. No WAY Joe would survive!!

I think Liston dispatches Frazier in 3-4 rounds.

 

A Prime Joe Frazier getting dropped twice against A 5ft10 Oscar Bonavena and lasting 25 rounds with him in 2 fights tells me everything I need to know about Fraziers fate against a Prime Liston.

I understand styles make fights , But Liston is 10x the Destroyer Bonavena is.

 

A green Frazier beat Bonavena and dominated him in the rematch. A green Sonny lost to someone worse than Bonavena. The criticism doesn't hold. Liston is overrated, seriously.

A real fight between Frazier vs Liston would suprise so many people here

 

Foreman was something else. He ragdolled not only Frazier but also Chuvalo, and Ali had the look of a bull rider in the first round. At one point, Foreman pushed him off with his left and whacked him with the right to the ribs. Never saw anyone else do that to mature Ali. And no one else treated Chuvalo and Frazier like that.

Fast forward, and he was doing the same to bigger and stronger men. He was a phenom in terms of strength. Liston manmandled Patterson, but when he came up against fighters about his own size he wasn't as dominant physically. He also wasn't nearly as blatant with his pushing as Foreman. Would be interesting if it's Foreman instead of Ali in MSG with Frazier in 1971 and Mercante shows as little tolerance for Foreman's pushing as he did for Ali's holding.

Liston had such good inside game that I don't think he would need to push Frazier off, though. He'd probably be happy to have him there.

 

There are different shades of green, though. Frazier was an Olympic gold medalist, but I don't think Liston had any other experience than prison boxing when turning pro.

Not that I think Frazier's struggles in the first fight with Bonavena is anything to maka a deal about, he did much better in the rematch after all, as you say.

 

TOP POST!

 

Frazier wasn't fighting with a broken jaw against Bonavena though was he.
And Liston wasn't floored twice either was he.

 

Liston isn't chinny light heavyweight Patterson and Joe is levels above Cleveland Williams. All Williams had was power and athleticism. His defense is ironically better than anyone of Listons record bar Ali

 

If it went like common assumption believes, no, I wouldn't be surprised, in all honesty, (that Liston would be all wrong for Frazier) but I would lean toward a strong hunch of it winding up being the exact opposite, that Frazier would be all wrong for Liston. Not that he would simply gut it out and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but that Frazier would actually just look all wrong for Liston, from at or near the beginning, in a way that would satisfy people to say this is the wrong type of guy for Liston, ever after the fact. Again, zero surprise if majority proved correct, and in recognition that the best fights for how one does against the other will be two Frazier losses to point to. I won't claim otherwise. I am saying if I were forced to bet, it's my legitimately held suspicion, based on my overall life as a fight fan, that it would turn into a for-most unforeseen disaster against Sonny.

I think as soon as Frazier shows the ability to slip Liston's jab and work him inside, and his speed of hand and head and volume of power punches begins to take a toll, it's going to look like man vs boy in the opposite direction than assumed. People will wonder why Liston's strength isn't forcing Frazier back but Liston will feel disarmed and discombobulated. I see it more that Liston will be completely unnerved and undone when he can't get the flush shots on Frazier he wants with reliability and when he does, they aren't stopping Frazier from swarming him, even if he hurts him and puts him down in the process. If Frazier were a little less bulk, or a little less speed or power, or just a hair less capable of taking a shot, it's enough to pick Liston. But with what I think they bring to the table, I'm leaning Frazier being as wrong for Liston as most assume Liston is for Frazier. I can't wait till I die and get to see it for real.