1985 Tony Tubbs vs. 2010 Vitali Klitschko

Klit power!!!

Mr.bill

 

I just don't see how a guy who almost never lost a round over his entire career is supposed to lose a decision to a somewhat skilled, but middling heavyweight who has a reputation for donuts and crack.

 

Ok, if winning fights at that age is your criteria for greatness then of course Vitali is great.

I tend to take into account quality of opposition.

As for the Ali and Louis comparisons, those two were undisputed champions at 22 and 23 respectively, and were retired by 39.
Klitschko wasn't even a professional boxer until he was 25.
And his career accomplishments simpley do NOT stack up with Louis and Ali.
However much you wish they do, they do not.

Holmes was winning fights in his 40s. He beat a young Ray Mercer at 42, and Mercer was better than an old Shannon Briggs or Albert Sosnowski.

Hey, I'll give him credit for fighting a far more acceptable challenger than his last one. Briggs was a disgraceful choice. I'm not going to criticize Vitali for fighting Adamek. Briggs was a meaningless win, at least Adamek is a current contender. It's not Vitali's fault the division has not much to offer.

But I'm not going to pretend than Adamek is as good as Witherspoon or Tubbs.

And ultimately you have to consider quality of opposition.

 

Vitali turned pro at 26 after he was an amateur boxing champion, and pro kick boxing champion. He had to switch styles, and did not have Dundee or Blackburn teaching him. As for Louis, and Ali, they had some really bad opposition in some title matches. Worse that what we are seeing now, yet sometimes the lesser guys made either Ali or Louis look bad. You will never see a journeymen like Wepner or a short fat guy like Galento knock Vitali down, or win rounds. Never ever. Dominance in the ring is Klitschko's forte. It does not matter if the opponent was as good as Lennox Lewis, Vitali took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice and proved he was the better boxer, up 4-2 on all cards. He never got a re-match because Lewis felt he would not be as lucky the 2nd time around.

Briggs as a former lineal champion and big puncher is not a meaningless win. It means something. Briggs looked much better vs. Ibragimov and Liachovich, but was totally out classed despite being in his best shape in years. See the difference in dominance? You can not penalize Vitali if Haye, Solis, and Valuev do not want to fight him. The reverse should happen.

I have read your stuff before and predictions on Vitali. My conclusion is you don't fancy him, and seek to discredit his accomplishments by picking apart his opposition. That game can be played with anyone, but when you play that game you will see tier 2 guys giving past great champions trouble. This is never the case with Vitali, so you should also factor that in. Very few past greats have a win over another past great when both were in their active primes.

 

My heart says Tubbs but my mind says Vitali... a tough one.

My body says I need hard liqour and women...

 

I was playing Fight Night Round 4 the other day and thought to myself, Eddie Chambers is a poor mans Tony Tubbs

 

A Hobo's Starving Old Rabies dog Version of Tubbs IMO.

 

I hate to admit it, but I don't know enough about Tony Tubbs outside of the Tyson fight to make a judgement. And if I were to use that fight and boxrec to make a frankly uninformed judgement, I'd have to go for a easyish Vitali win on points

 

EASYISH??? :rofl:rofl:rofl

Tubbs out-boxed Prime 'Spoon for 15 rounds in 1985 And IMO out-Boxed near-Prime Bowe in 1991 - But didnt get Decision.

 

Yes, and it's you who brought up his current age and how that compares to Louis and Ali.
I'm merely pointing out that Ali and Louis were finished at 39 but they were champs at 23.
I'm not demanding that Vitali should have been champ at 23, but you seem to want to prove his has some sort of superiority because he's still winning at 39 (whereas Louis and Ali were finished and retired).

And besides, no one in their right minds thinks Vitali's anywhere near as great as Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali. ....

Ali and Louis fought some BUMS and third-raters in title matches, yes.
But they also did a great deal besides that.
Their records are much better than Vitali's record. I know you've convinced yourself otherwise, and are trying to push the idea that Vitali will go down in history with them, but it's ridiculous.

And Vitali lost the Lewis fight fair and square.

George Foreman's a former champion with a big punch but that doesn't mean he's a meaningful opponent.

Vitali is better than Liakovich and Ibragimov, granted.

I dont penalize Vitali. But you seem to want me to credit him with having beaten better opposition that he's beating. What, do you want me to pretend that Shannon Briggs was a good opponent ?
You want me to say Albert Sosnowski and Kevin Johnson were as good as Pinklon Thomas and Tim Witherspoon and Mike Dokes ?
They simply are NOT.

You think I hate VK just because I have the nerve to state the truth on this thread. Even you know these statements are true.

And once again, Valuev is a bum. He's hardly better than Briggs so you wont hear me ever saying VK should be fighting him.

I dont seek to discredit him, and I just want to give a fair and accurate picture of his opposition.

You wont find me pretending Joe Calzaghe beat a whole load of quality fighters in his "title" fights either. You wont hear me defending Muhammad Ali for fights with Richard Dunn, Alfredo Evangelista or Chuck Wepner either. Larry Holmes fought his fair share of meaningless defences too. And Joe Louis fought some real bad ones.

Vitali is good but he's not a "true ring great".

 

Where you rank Voidtali?

And is he greater then Tyson?? [who beat teh same quality of shitty competiton]

 

VK is great in my books, but only because he dominated his era. WK also. However i also take into account they rule over by far the worst HW division in history, on top of that their performances arent exactly awe inspiring. However they are at the top and getting the job done so the get marks for longetivity and dominance.
They belong on the lower tiers of ATG rankings.

 

I dont rank Vitali anywhere among the top 20 heavyweight ATGs.

I think Tyson ranks higher.
I think Berbick, Tubbs, Tucker, Carl Williams, Ruddock were better than Sosnowski, Sam Peter, Corrie Sanders, Areola and Gomez etc.
And I dont rank Tyson as high as most do either.

I think Wladimir has a much better resume and reign, and a better claim to being the true champion, than Vitali does.
Wladimir probably deserves to go down as a great fighter, who dominated this era and fought the better fighters.

 

May I see your top 20, then we judge if Vitali is anywhere near it?