1988 Tyson vs 1990 Holyfield

mike, lacked mental tougness folks, remember that!!

 

No he didn't. This bullshet has really got to stop. Especially around these forums. What he lacked was discipline at this stage. Geezus!

 

I never said Tyson WASN'T diminished. Clearly he was. But so was Holyfield. Not sure why that's so difficult to accept when its as clear as day.

 

Mental toughness and discipline are closely linked, pretty much the same thing in a boxing context.
Mental focus, mind set, confidence, desire, resolve .... it's all in the same ballpark. It's all the MENTAL factor.

Mentally and physically Tyson would have to be 100% to have a chance against Holyfield, because we can all agree that Holyfield was always going to fight above himself with Tyson as opponent.

 

Tyson by late TKO.

Holy's always been far too brave for his own good, fighting when he should have been boxing. An '88 Tyson is one of the worst heavyweights to stand toe-to-toe with.

 

He was always disciplined and in consistent shape. I can't say I've seen many sloppy Tyson performances or weight fluculations until his complete meltdown before the Lewis fight at the end of his career. The Botha fight after the long lay off and some of the cruder moments in the second Ruddock fight are about it.

What he lacked was adaptability. Outside of the Tucker fight, he really wasn't the type to make adjustments. That would have came with maturity and experience but his progression was stunted early and he never grew mentally as a fighter. In his 95 comeback he even added weapons like an improved right cross but his approach was always the same, attacking in the same patterns, same strategy like a programmed killing machine, Holyfield broke the code, maybe always would have.

I've always been of the opinion that Tyson didn't so much decline as stagnate.

 

an interesting theory.

 

The real decline begins with Nielsen.

 

Yeah I can't imagine Nielsen lasting as long as he did if he were in there with any decent version of Tyson.

 

Yeah, that's about the way I see it.
I do think he regressed a bit, after 1988. And certainly mentally after Douglas battered him. But he was still a work-in-progress in '87 and '88, what people retrospectively term his 'prime'. The critcisms people make of his style in later years (predictability after a few rounds, too much throwing one punch at a time as fights went on, neglecting the head movement, frustration, etc.) were things that people were picking up already in his 'prime', at least the commentators I was listening to. It just all became more so, and his opponents viewed him differently too.

 

I always felt back then Holyfield was the only one who could live with Tyson's ferocity and blinding speed. I see Tyson beating Holy but not dominating, late stoppage or even pts. In a quick rematch I think Holy gets his win. These were the two great opponents of the early 90s, Bowe and Lewis would have followed later.

 

Tyson had more power... that's why we didn't get to see what kind of heart he had until later. You mention he showed heart vs. Douglas, well, he lost that fight. His fights vs. Ruddock were good, but he really should not have had such a tough time with Ruddock in my opinion. Ruddock got more respect for his two losses vs. Tyson than his KO wins over Smith and Dokes. Ruddock was far from great.

Holyfield was always better in my opinion, but Tyson was great as well.
Holyfield beat Hall of Famer Dwight Qawi in just his 12th pro fight, W15. He stopped him in 4 rounds in their rematch. Only Holyfield and Foreman were able to stop Qawi. He also beat Hall of Famers Carlos DeLeon, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson x2, and he drew with Lewis (sure Lewis should have won their first fight but the rematch could have been a draw). Holyfield beat more Lineal HW Champs than anybody. He beat Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson x2, Rahman... and he drew with Lewis.

 

Mmmmm, I'm not so sure. The other poster was basically referring to Tyson as being "mentally weak", which isn't in the same class as discipline. We can go on for days dissecting it but being mentally weak and losing focus don't mean the same thing. At least not to me. To me, mentally weak means giving up, not wanting to win, not being able to fight through adversity. Losing focus in Tyson talk means being lazy, lacking work ethic, being cawky, possibly due to putting up with all the BS he went thought. Different from being "mentally fragile".

Regarding your second paragraph I completely agree.

 

The first fight with Bruno wasn't sloppy? He looked lethargic, unbalanced and slow compared to just 8 months earlier.

 

Holy was not quicker than Tyson.

Tyson of 88 would of punished Holy with quickness as well as what Tyson lost the most of after 88 that being ENDURANCE, well patience also.

Evander was flat out in better shape for their match ups and that naturally plays a huge factor in how the fight unfolds.

Holy was quick, there is no doubt, if you think Holy was quicker than Tyson your mistaken.

Tyson stopped training seriously before Douglas.

Tyson had bailed out on training to some degree or other all the way back to when Cus was still around,,, however, he was in such good shape overall it didn't matter enough,

however, before the Douglas fight there was many signs, Tyson was coming into that fight in such overall poor shape he was "ripe" to be beaten.

After Douglas, Tyson fights great in small stages but overall he simply was never in the same in terms of overall energy he brought into his fights thereafter