1988 Tyson vs 1990 Holyfield

I don't know, I think one spills over in to the other.
In both Holyfield fights there are signs of mental weakness. The first fight, way too much looking to the referee, even after legitimate punches. Maybe he didn't know what was happening. In the second fight, well, we hardly have to go in to that.

Tyson was always prone to frustration. He's always been an emotional fighter. When he was on form and at his best, it worked for him as much as against him. But it was always a fine balance, easily tipped into the negative.

 

The 8-month layoff, by far his longest up to that time, had something to do with it. And all the other BS. How did he look against Carl Williams ?

This is something I know we disagree on, but I never rated his balance as a strong point. He was always a little sloppy with his feet and unorthodox in his stance, but he was thick-set and his centre of gravity low so he got away with it.

 

I personally think the difference between Holyfield and Tyson was the mental aspect to their games. You had one who was a bit unstable, even back in the day when he was a kid he had problems keeping it together psychologically, Holyfield on the other hand was the complete opposite and had mental strength and belief more than any other boxer maybe only second to Ali.

Holyfield was never intimidated but I always got the impression that Tyson was intimidated by Holyfield. When it came to boxing skills they were very close, but I think Holyfield had the better boxing brain and Holyfield had the chin to withstand a Tyson onslaught and then he would reply back which Tyson was never really comfortable with really. The extra reach Holyfield had too would always play a part because Holyfield was a fine boxer and knew how to use the jab to offset his opponents, and that is the most important punch when facing Tyson.

I was a huge Tyson fan when I was a kid and used to say Tyson would beat everyone, but looking back and now speaking truthfully without bias I honestly believe the extra belief that Holyfield had in himself and the way he always said it was his goal to beat Tyson, I think it doesn't matter when Tyson and Holyfield fought, Holyfield would have always beat Tyson.

 

I don’t think Tyson was mentally weak, he wouldn’t have got to the point he did if that was the case. He had the mental fortitude to dominate the heavyweight division for a few years. I just feel that when he ran out of ideas he folded, he still fought on and showed heart but didn’t have that ability to refuse defeat and attack like a cornered animal when hurt. Holyfield had that quality, even in loss to Bowe he showed us if your gonna beat Evander its not going to be easy and he will be there until the end trying to destroy you. That’s the mental edge I give to him.

I don’t think Tyson needed that quality as he was so powerful and had that natural talent, but when he needed that resolve it wasn’t there, at least not to the same degree as those old greats that refused to lose. The only time I saw Tyson slug it out in a tough fight and win was against Ruddock. He did show in that fight that he had the fortitude to fight back and win after being buzzed a few times, but as others have said, Ruddock really just had power and lacked skills. Holyfield would be consistently landing combos, I’m not convinced Evander of 90 could really hurt Mike but he might get a TKO later or a points win.

The unknown factor is Tyson being too powerful and strong for Holyfield, to the point he wouldn’t really need to show that much fortitude? Cooper nearly had Evander out so its not impossible to think Tyson could catch him and end it quick. There are just so many factors to this fight. I put a little stock in the 96 fight to the point that Holyfield showed that refusal to lose, to the point Mike couldn’t even hurt him, that’s like supernatural will, a very dangerous quality.

I read that Steward interview and it was a very good take on Tyson, basically saying he was one of the most exciting heavyweights ever, if not the best. Its very significant that Evander always wanted to beat him, its like having an obsessive stalker! I don’t think Mike was as bothered about Holyfled and saw him as small and weak, I think I read an interview years ago when he said as much. Its always a dangerous situation when a guy like Holyfield is that obsessive about beating you, would Tyson ever have been as mentally up as Evander for this fight?

sorry long post :yikes

 

Guys with power have found themselves in some of the most brutal wars in the history of the sport. No-one could get him into a war becuase of his skill level, no-one was catching him with clean shots and they got punished everytime they missed.
He lost the Douglas fight but he took an absolute pounding look at that beating the shots he takes are ridiculous, Douglas thought he'd quit after 5 rounds of that but there was no quit in him, and still he almost knocked him out with the only decent punch he landed throughout the fight!
Tyson dominated Ruddock for 19 rounds knocking him down 6 times, he hardly struggled with him.
Tyson was knocking DeLeon around the ring at 14! He's one the guys who packed his **** and got the **** out of there!
Not sure what the point your'e making is I never questioned Holyfields resume I simply pointed toward a potential outcome of an earlier meeting between he and Tyson.

 

Nah, he was still quick and sharp in tha tone. Bruno was just mauling him from the opening bell, grabbing him around the head constantly and going to the ropes. Hard to look good in that situation, you might as well say Tyson looked sloppy and lethargic against Bonecrusher. Great finish from Mike in that one.

 

Bruno was strong as an ox and wrestling with Tyson. That's true, it's hard to look slick in that situation. I do think Tyson was not as evasive as he had been, and less sharp, but probably due to the lay-off, and he looked better in some later fights.
A lot of people subscribe to the Kevin Rooney statements as accurate, "I saw how much his skills had eroded." or "He forget everything about the Cus D'Amato style" .... but this is exaggeration, imo. Rooney has an agenda, of course. The whole original Tyson team exaggerates. If you watch the entirety of his longer fights, 1986-'87, there's plenty of extended spells where he lapses, in his head movement and his combination punching, and he looked predictable. The criticisms were already there, he wasn't perfect. He was human after all, and a work in progress.

 

agree with you by degree and disagree by degree, I mean as far as the entire "Rooney and Cus theory" ,, you say that Tyson's longer fights of 86-87 have plenty of extended lapses in head movement, combination punching etc, however, in those fights Tyson had far more output overall prior to the spells your referring to which did indeed exist.

With Bruno what I noticed was subtle. Without putting in a sustained attack to the "degree" that he had in bouts prior, Tyson's overall energy level for Bruno was simply "less" ,,, so I agree with you about how this was then exadurated thereafter, however, I disagree as I think there is truth to it.

In my mind the point that is being "CONFUSED" in this thread is in regards to MOTIVATION related to MENTAL WEAKNESS, rather than mental weakness related to HEART/DETERMINATION in the ring.

I think its "fair" to believe that Tyson reached the top so fast that once he became top dog he LOST the degree of interest that formerly made him a champ at such a early age. What proof do we have ? Well overall the best proof is pre 88 Tyson's training camps were overall far more "ORDERLY" far more "intense" and most of all, far more consistent day in and day out "WORK".

Thus when against Bonecrusher in a wrestling match, well Tyson gets tired but in my opinion he was in such good overall shape he never got tired enough that he began to panic. Well, he did panic a bit, he got frustrated, however, when your in a fight and are getting so tired in the back of your head your WORRIED you may not be able to go the distance before really beginning to "weaken" significantly, well that is far harder to deal with if one was arrogant enough to not train enough prior to that fight with or without MENTAL TOUGHNESS.

Even though Tyson had big problems with Smiths tactics and abilities to tie Tyson up as well as Tuckers, he didn't "IMPLODE" and stuck to "winning rounds" to win the fight. Thus he had planned for this and was ready to deal with it even if it meant not being able to knock his opponent out to simply just beat his opponent.

In my mind, later in his career had Tyson fought the same Bonecrusher he beat over 12 foul filled god awful rounds of boxing, well I think Tyson would have had a far harder time simply staying focused and winning rounds to win the fight rather than fight to HURT his opponent only to become frustrated when not being able to.

I think its not unfair to state that Tyson could have been way better if he did not lose his overall motivation to be the best so early. After he knocks out Berbick and looses Jimmy Jacobs, Tyson in my mind really does not care as much about his legacy of victories and thus his training overall when compared to his early commitment.

Rooney was good for Tyson when Cus was around as Cus was boss. If Rooney had a problem with Tyson in his early days as long as Cus had no problem with Tyson, Rooney would overall keep his yapper shut. After Cus passes, Rooney tries to take over Cus's mentor role with Tyson and that did not go well and thus Rooney is always going to be bitter.

Before Tyson fought Douglas, the writing was on the wall. Tyson has already won big fights prior to facing Douglas while surviving unmotivated training camps. Not just in overall conditioning but in planning and preparation which was what Cus was great motivating Tyson with.

Thus heading into the Douglas fight not only is Tyson's overall motivation to train significantly depleted, Tyson is already in my opinion waiting to loose. Part of him just does not give a crap anymore in the same way. He believes he can miss parts of his training camps and get away with it and he does not care enough to focus on what will happen when he can no longer get away with it.

I think a prime Tyson takes a prime Holyfield. If not by KO by decision possibly even taking a beating in some of the middle to late rounds, simply not the beating he took several years later when Holy came ready for Tyson in the best shape of his career. I am not saying Tyson was not trained and in horrid shape for Holy, I am saying that Tyson was not in the same physical shape or mental shape by the time that the Holy fight comes around. With a guy as great as Holy that was a dangerous mistake for even a guy like Tyson to make.

 

Good post.
Yes, I agree that Tyson lost some 'intensity' by some degree, post-1988. I think it happens to most champions.
I'd pick Holyfield at his best to beat Tyson at his best, but not with any degree of certainty. As for Tyson AFTER Douglas beat him, I'm more sure that Holyfield beats him up.

 

Holyfield wouldnt fight tyson like he did in 96, he would get drawn into an all out war, he wouldnt be holding and smothering so much. He would end standing toe to toe punch for punch like he always did around that time. When he got hurt he opened up and went for it. Thats a bad idea.

 

Precisely :good

91' Tyson/Holyfield, 2 totally different fighters to 96' Tyson/Holyfield.

Holyfield himself when questioned a couple of years ago on ESB, was asked what would have happened in 91 had Tyson not gone to prison Holyfields reply was
'It would have been the greatest fight ever'

 

I narrowly favour the best of Holyfield.

A question more on my mind is could any version of Tyson beat the Holyfield of the first fight? Evander was up for it mentally, tactically and whatever else one can think of. Holyfield's strategy was absolutely PERFECTO.

 

Cus died before Tyson won his first World Title. With that said, who did Tyson fight prior to Cus' death? The answer? Not too many good HWs. To say Tyson was past prime or a different fighter after Cus' death... IDK man? Tyson was what, 19 when he died? He was only 23 when he lost to Douglas. When the fvck was his prime?

 

The imaginative powers of Tyson fanboys is something to behold. They have a million excuses for their weirdo freak, to the point that they wear their stupidity like medals.

Prison, smoking weed, divorce, drinking Brandy, you name it these morons seek it out. Just look at the ring announcement in their first fight. The imbecile tries the stare and Holy SMIRKS at the cretinous fool. The guts just drain out of him. This goon hit on the break, low blows, headbutts, hit after the bell, anything you like, but after 3 rounds of the country boy bringing it to the " tough guy " from Bed Stuyy he is screaming " Mr Mills, Mr Mills, Mr Mills, like the ***** he was in Holyfields hands.

Please Tyson fanboys FVCK OFF, you are embarrassing.

Holyfield could go out all night breeding as many children, with as many women as were willing to accommodate him, and still beat Tyson in his sleep.

 

did Tyson **** your ****ing mom or something?

sounds like your arse is sore and Tyson is the cause