1991 foreman vs Marciano

This "Marciano was hard to hit" meme that's been popping up around here lately is revisionist fan fiction. Guys could hit Marciano -- lord knows that he led with his face often enough while throwing wide enough punches -- most of them just couldn't withstand his return fire.

 

Counterfactual conditionals always seem to be stated with such confidence! It's a shame how some posters ignore the distinction between association and causality.

 

Right. How silly of me to infer some kind of causal connection between George Foreman's size and his strength, punching power, and ability to withstand punishment. Do you question that there is a causal connection? Maybe you need an empirical study?

 

Motte and bailey.

 

I have posted film of short guys not as good as Rocky push George back.

Rocky would beat Bald George to the draw. George is much too slow. Far too slow. He has to aim at Rocky as he feints his way forward using angles. George won't time him as well as he needs to. It will be difficult for George to land more than a glancing blow much like he did on former super middleweight Everett Martin, Dwight Qawi and Guido Trane.

George would not make Rocky wait and strand himself ring centre because george can't throw often enough to keep him there. He did not have the fast hands and tireless engine did he?

Those shoving tactics only work on fighters with a square stance. To get a real good shove on Rocky he needs to be in a clinch where he is already being clubbed to death by Rocky.

Rocky will land clean on George because everyone landed clean on bald George. That means bald George gets knocked clean out dosnt it?

George won't find room. Reznick is right. Bald Foreman is a fat joe Louis without a quick jab.

 

No, that was just sarcasm. Should be obvious but I based my initial counterfactual claim on the assumption that a much smaller 210-lb version of "old Foreman" would not have been strong enough, powerful enough, or durable enough to overcome his obvious limitations and become a force in the 1990s heavyweight division. This is obviously a non-disprovable claim but I don't see any reasonable substantive bases for doubting it, or any obvious rebuttals. Do you?

[Going to bed and busy tomorrow so I might not be able to reply anytime soon]

 

I don't want to take unfair advantage of your not having much time to reply any time soon, so very briefly:

1) It's not clear that I have any burden to furnish a "reasonable" basis to doubt it unless I already concede that it *appears* obvious prima facie and should be granted by default, unless and until someone provides an active reason to think it's less obvious than it appears at first glance. I don't grant this to begin with.

I wish more people would fully appreciate (and I'm not necessarily saying you don't ) that saying a proposition is undemonstrated does not commit one to asserting that it's false.

2)We'd have to be clear on exactly what else we're changing about hypothetical Foreman other than his weight. (That's the tricky thing about counterfactuals; they're unavoidable in rationally thinking about the world, but if you start to get nitpicky - or rigorous - it starts to look like an increasingly silly notion to change just one thing about the world without this rippling out and changing many others.)

 

Wait, tell me again why Foreman is going to have the slightest trouble shoving Rocky around? Most of your analysis strikes me as at least arguable, aside from this.

 

Hero worship.

 

The film just doesn't match the description:
https://streamable.com/6yooo

 

Bald Foreman = fatter version of 1951 Joe Louis without a quick jab.

 

Get off the grass lol

Foreman has sooooooo much more strength. He thrived on pushing little guys back when he wasn't hammering them with uppercuts. He also had heavier hands than the worn out version of Louis.

 

Old Foreman does not have the capacity to hurt Marciano,is that what you are saying?

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Bald Foreman still had his punch, Louis did not,its the little things that matter.lol

 

He can't win a fight at that level just on strength can he? He has to be hitting Rocky more than Rocky can hit him. Everyone hit Bald George more than he hit them,that's why he targeted the smallest non punchers of the era. George knew he could take what ever power they had and just wear them down.

He's not taking Rockys punches any better than a younger Joe Louis did.

If Holyfeild hit like Rocky George would not have went three rounds with him. And Evander knocked Moorer down how many times?

Those heavy hands of George were mighty slow. He might have knocked out Moorer but If he could not knock out guido Trane and Everett Martin he's not knocking out Rocky.