1991 foreman vs Marciano

Rocky did not give Louis the room to find power. Watch the fight.

Louis showed power in his comeback. Watch the second Brion fight. The Savold Fight. The Agramante fight. He had real power.

 

No I posted ringside reports from boxing writers that state they thought Lowry and Lastarza won their first fights against Marciano. You provided an unverified quote, that is not a primary source and you originally stated Marciano broke the bones of both Lastarza and Moore then, on being challenged on this you quietly dropped Moore and said some writer said Lastarza had bone chips in his arms after the Marciano fight.I haven't" run my mouth at you," I've been polite

Foreman wouldn't need to cut the ring for Marciano, Rocky would be coming at him.

 

Yeah Briggs, Morrison were small non punchers.lol

 

Louis had ko'd just one of his last nine opponents, a worn out 36 years old Savold, he no longer had his right hand and anyone who has any pretensions to a knowlegde of boxing and commonsense knows it!

 

You and facts are complete strangers.

 

People would criticize Marciano to hell for defeating an old Foreman.
That's the most he can gain out of this fight it seems.

 

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No I posted ringside reports from boxing writers that state they thought Lowry and Lastarza won their first fights against Marciano. You provided an unverified quote, that is not a primary source and you originally stated Marciano broke the bones of both Lastarza and Moore then, on being challenged on this you quietly dropped Moore and said some writer said Lastarza had bone chips in his arms after the Marciano fight.I haven't" run my mouth at you," I've been polite and provided primary sources for my claims. You responded to my very first post by implying I'm ignorant of the facts ,in fact I believe from your response that I know more about Marciano and his fights than you do! I have a taped interview with Archie Moore about the Marciano fight he never mentions any broken bones against Marciano nor is there and talk of any such injuries in the post fight reports which I have read. Here is an interview with Roland Lastarza about the Marciano fights referring to the second fight he states,[ as I have said that,] he suffered damaged blood vessels,again no mention of any broken bones and the next day fight reports have zero on that too! I'd be grateful for an admission of error on your part.
I wish you well here and hope you enjoy your time with us.
!An Interview with Roland LaStarza

Former Golden Gloves champ and heavyweight contender Roland LaStarza was unable to join us today. However, he shared these stories about his career and wished everyone in attendance well.

On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision.

"The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches."

hhascup, Jun 27, 2009 Report

NB Henry Hascup was a poster here who is/was prominent in boxing circles in the US. His input is sadly missed.

Here is a ringside report of the second LastarzavMarciano fight ,Lastarza's arm injury is referred to by his cornerman.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=VIEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2685,3628216&hl=en

 

Who would have thought All Joe Louis needed to do to beat Rocky was get even older, shave his head, and put on 30lb of blubber?

 

Who would have thought your posts could descend to such depths as they have over the last couple of years,from being a respectable poster to a bad joke.

 

What depths am I going to in asking this?. There wasn't much difference between George and Joe on their comebacks. In a lot of ways Louis was better. He was younger, in better shape and beating real contenders. Since 1949 Louis had knocked out Elmer Ray, pat Valentino, Nino Valdes and beat guys like Shkor, Layne, Curtis Shepherd in "exhibitions". Losing to Charles was no different than Foreman losing to Holyfeild. There was no Michael Moorer around for Joe to beat back then. So he met Rocky. That's the main difference between George and Joe on their old man comebacks. George had the luxury of selecting a lesser champion.

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When Foreman won against Moorer I was as happy as anyone that Foreman had achieved the unachievable. But I expected the dust to eventually settle and for folks to take stock on what actually happened. What was the sum total of that comeback, how relevant was it to the best of that time. That's what usually happens with later assessment of champions. But George being such a unique case he seems to have gotten a giant pass. A bit like Ali when he beat Spinks. He beat Spinks but it was clear Ali was no longer a great fighter or the best in the world any longer.

 

Have you seen my other posts? I mean the threads I started, HW champ list, Primus Fisticuffs, etc? I'm not trying to pretend to know what I don't, doing that nonsense would weaken any claims I make in my own threads. I'm just trying to be short because most of my time is being spent elsewhere and plenty of others are covering Marciano on this forum. I don't want to spend too much time covering this and if I go on about Moore or Vingo or anyone else who got hurt pretty bad you are going to rightly challenge that so I figured why not just dance with the main man what all the talk is about? If you feel disrespected I am sorry for that bud. I don't mind you having the title knower of the Marciano at all. I'm presently all up in the colored champion's stuff and trying to make sense of sanctioning bodies vs claimant and why to this day JJ as colored champion was and is considered less legitimate a world champion than Hart even though it's not disputed that situation was set up by racism not boxing and Johnson was clearly the best HW around. I feel like that act, denying Jack, legitimized the colored championship and it's lineage and that history, my own damn list included, has been unfair to the black story in boxing. Sam Langford should not be seen as someone who never won a world title, he should be seen as the five time champion of a belt equal to the belt caused by the retirement of Jeffries. I don't want to step outside of that too much until I've satisfied my curiosity. That said I am apprehensive still to admit a mistake, bare with me.

So that source don't mention it. I'm not real sure why or how that takes away from Libby's book. You've to discredit the claim not prove your claims came from a valid source. I didn't assume you just made things up guy. When I said run yer mouth at me I was trying to push you a bit but I didn't get what I thought I'd get. I was pretty sure you were going to get into my source, and you did a bit by mentioning it's an unverified quote.

That's quite interesting to me, but I'd like you to take it a step farther. I thought it was verified, it is in a published and well received history book or isn't it? Or was it published in the book then later discredited? I'm confused and have never heard of Libby's book being poor in any regard. I thought it was highly acclaimed and sought after which why it is so damned expensive. I mean I've a few books that directly reference that book and all. I'd be very interested in anything that detracts from, discredits, or in anyway challenges Libby's book but you're going to have to help with that because I'm seeing diddles in what you linked that does actually challenge it.

I'm actually quite ****in impressed with this forum. I understand why Henry would give you lot some time. It's a lot less BS than most places. I'm having to learn to tone back the aggressiveness I've picked up from other forums, but other than that tiny friction I feel perfectly at home.

 

Here is the post fight write up of the Agramonte fight by the Detroit News. Louis' adopted home town.
"His punch was gone,his footwork was clumsy,he couldn't defend against a right hand,he telegraphed everything he threw except light flicks and was bedazed when he had a knockout opportunity.
Even on a clinical basis it wasn't enjoyable,and a psychological portion of the study was more discouraging.
When the examiners reached old Joe Louis after the fight he seemed to think he had done quite well."A hardman to fight" said the Bomber, in a series of short panting sentences,"I'm happy about this one because it proved I can go 10rds without getting tired...I'm satisfied I can throw my right hand.My right didn't show up much tonight'cause he weaves away from a right.Sure I want to fight Savold,he hurt me just once,with one in the belly."

" Here certainly was evidence that Louis doesn't understand how much he has slipped".
"Old Joe Louis in winning his decision was little more than a clinical study of what happens to muscles and reflexes of an aging athlete" Paul Chandler. Detroit News.

 

I'm an average poster and make no claims to any areas of special expertise. We have Lastarza saying he just damaged blood vessels in his arm against Rocky,if he had bone chips surgically removed I'm pretty sure he would have mentioned it in that interview.aren't you?
Moore had no particular damage after the Marciano fight, both he and Lastarza had fights within 5 months of their Marciano bouts .

The Black Championships? An area studded with mine-fields imo eg Jackson was the Black Champion when he beat George Godfrey in1888, since he never lost it he was presumably still the Black Champion in 1899 when he retired 11 years later! I guess since Sullivan,Corbett Fitz,Jeffries Hart, all refused to defend against Black Men , it would be perfectly legitimate to call them only White World Champions?

Libby writes on a variety of subjects from auto racing to singing, I wouldn't classify him as a boxing expert, or even a boxing writer and ,not wanting to be combative, but you made the claim Rocky broke bones and the only proof you have of that is a quote from Libby in a book, sorry, that won't cut it,the onus is on you to prove it ,not me to disprove it.

 

But this is in comparison to the phenomenon Joe Louis had been isn't it? Taken on face value without comparison with the past Joe beat guys convincingly in his comeback. Not by "brown bomber" standards but still by the standard of a number one contender to the champion.

Here is what associated press says of the Savold fight..

"It was strictly a one-sided battle all the way as Louis snapped Savold's head back with jarring left jabs and belted him to the head and body with short rights and uppercuts. From the second round on Savold gushed blood from his nose. Only in the fifth, when he shook the Bomber with two overhand rights to the head, did the Englewood (N.J.) veteran inflict any damage. Louis said the rights did not bother him. 'I knew what I was doing all the time,' said Louis."

" He put away Savold with a right to the body and as beautiful a left hook to the jaw as you will ever see."

Here is the report of the second Cesar Brion fight.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Joe_Louis_vs._Cesar_Brion