1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

1995 was the end of Bowe's peek and Lewis was entering his.

 

‘Sugar’ Ray Leonard was a risk taker, and secondly he had never been previously beaten by Hagler. While your points about fear are not untrue, the comparison is a bit far-fetched. Bowe was of a different nature and position.

The key word is assertiveness. Lewis knew how to assert himself in the ring and punctuate his advantages to a degree better than most Heavyweights. Lewis had great spirit and fire to go along with his tools. Gonzalez only had a blunted version of those tools.

Lewis leant on you and induced referee separations. Shannon Briggs likened punching Lewis’ arms to punching steel. Lennox was a great diffuser. Lewis would be the one running proceedings and time his inside clamps to make sure he did not get countered like Holyfield did. As Ted Spoon said, Lennox would be in the driving seat.

Lewis was beaten once by a freak punch when not the well-rounded fighter he became and later done in after his worst ever performance. The results were not acceptable, but there are reasons for his two massive failings.

Bowe was running out of steam when it came to Golota, but at the same time it was Golota who was applying the final nails to the coffin. Golota would have always given Bowe trouble; tall, strong, educated, snappy jab.

Ted Spoon, perhaps slightly overstates Lewis’ advantages and understates Bowe’s a bit more to make a point, but certainly not ‘seriously over and understate’ on each point. Bowe has a chance to win, as does anyone, but Lewis would make him appear a lot less than the fighter he really is - this is the point - Lewis takes away from his game in a big way.

The difference is Holyfield was the craftier fighter of whom Lewis had more respect for. Not to mention that cast iron chin. Holyfield had a knack of smothering punches and masking pain. Bowe’s stance and positioning is far more vulnerable to Lewis’ peach right.

There is no ego, only the ever-loving truth.

 

That is true; and I fear that I may have hijacked this post by arguing on behalf of a prime Bowe.

 

MDWC sums things up well. Bowe had the skills, but was vunerable against ATG hitters and after Seol '88 would mentally be unsure of himself.

Most likely outcome is that Lewis wins: Anyway, anyhow, and anywhere he chooses.

 

The comparison was neither about personality nor history, it was about the public's tendency to psychoanalyze from great distances with limited information. Leonard was "scared". Bowe was "scared". An intellect should be armed with facts and valid inferences -not simplistic assumptions.

The point remains: Gonzalez was stronger and hit harder than Bowe and it amounted to nothing -because Bowe was punching inside of his looping power shots. Gonzalez style was more similar to Lewis than to the more technically savvy Bowe. He was undefeated as a pro with 1 guy out of 23 lasting the distance. Didn't matter -Bowe fought angrily but efficienly and destroyed him.

Gonzalez looked to me like he was not only assertive, he was downright menacing, before Bowe deposited him on his cheek.

And finally, Gonzalez beat Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs.

Lewis, the "Great Leaner"... Lewis was indeed a great diffuser, against relatively small men who he could physically overwhelm. I don't see such simple tactics being enough to put Lewis "in the driver's seat".

There are reasons indeed -but not excuses. I don't believe for a moment that the reasons are even good ones. Lewis demonstrated more vulnerability than any of his peers among the great HW champions. That is undeniable.

Your overstating Lewis and understating Bowe and my claims as to the degreee by which you do both is purely subjective. I remember our debate about Duran and Pryor and your claim was the same -that Pryor would be in the driver's seat and wouldn't allow Duran to impose his will. I'll give you this much, that scenerio would be more likely with Bowe-Lewis than Duran-Pryor.

Nevertheless, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the details and the victor.

Finally, any man who refers to himself in the third person and who claims a monopoly on the truth has forfeited any right to deny the weightiness of his own ego. It's okay, Ted, I hold you in high esteem -ego and error notwithstanding.

 

Gonzalez menacing ? .

Gonzales was a THIRD TIER pro HW of the era .

So Gonzalez = Lewis right ? :roll: :roll: .

The fact remained that only big man who was at least second tier that Bowe fought in the 90s in Golota whipped him twice.

Stop bringi ng up third tier HWs like Gonzales and Hide.


Iit does not matter how much you try and dress up the facts by claiming that Bowe wa more technically proficient then he really was. Its not gonna work on guys who actually saw the fights of the 90s.

Technically superior Hws dont have the horrible defense that Bowe had and dont get outjabbed by EVERYONE who threw a jab at them .

Bowe was able to pull out a trilogy with a smallish HW in Holyfield that does not make him the God who walked like man you believe him to be.


Take the Holyfield trilogy away and Bowe did'nt do a damn thing in the entire era.

Bowe was only the 4th best HW of the era.

 

The heart of the argument was about the media’s opinion on supposedly ‘scared’ fighters, but you initially rounded off your point with mentioning of Leonard’s success, seemingly insinuating Bowe’s chance of success when they where different men. That’s how it appeared.

The difference is Bowe and Lewis improved ten-fold after the amateurs. Gonzalez did not, and Gonzalez was nowhere near as assertive, strong, or as stylistically flexible as Lewis. He did not move or utilise his dimensions like Lewis. He had a paper record and then fell into oblivion when he rose above D level fighters.

He was more like Lewis than Bowe, correct, and he sported perhaps 15% of Lewis’ ability.

It is you who overstates Bowe’s ability and understates Lewis’… Yes/no… Who knows… Who cares. Let’s not accuse our stances, but rather fully hear each other out.

What Ted Spoon believes is that if a peak Bowe had somehow fought Lennox Lewis, during his prime, that he would suffer mentally, become gun shy, and soon start imploding when he sampled Lewis’ long range bombardment - this in itself is a guess, but not a blind one. That is probably how Lewis would go about things. He would try to smoke Bowe out, and judging from Bowe’s career that is probably what he would least like to cope with - a man whom he has negative history with, not giving him time to settle and threatening him with rangy bombs.

Fighters work well off fear, not off intimidation. It is a popular belief that Bowe, while he may not have been down-right scared, was intimidated to the point that he perhaps knew himself it would hinder his performance had he got the fight underway. Lewis once said; “Are you going to be chicken, Bowe?” Was he? Ted Spoon says probably.

All of this is indeed speculation that you are rightly putting under fire, but it has got to be one of the strongest cases of displayed negativity towards another fighter in Heavyweight history, which counts as a serious factor in a fictitious match.

Lewis was not a durable Heavyweight champion, but he had a structure that was hard to budge and exerted great power. It worked better on the smaller men but even Briggs, Grant and Vitali all felt his presence on the inside; he won those inside battles. He could be quite vicious.

In all of Lewis’ fights he won was he not anything less but a supreme hand full with a variety of ways to shut you out? He did not struggle in his career like Bowe had a few times during their ‘primes’.

The drift about Pryor was not that he would be in the driving seat but rather that Duran would not be able to ‘tame’ him. Another invigorating conversation.

You have defended the extreme speculation whereas yours truly has driven forth the general consensus. The points of concern have been swapped and we’ve reached a stalemate in terms our opinions, but on a plain, neutral bases, it is the belief of Ted Spoon that Lennox Lewis should be favoured over Riddick Bowe in a mythical match-up due to the rhythm of their careers and the fighters they were.

 

Gonzalez was dismissed after Bowe destroyed him. Hide was dismissed after Bowe defeated him. Donald was undefeated. Buster Mathis Jr. was undefeated. Holyfield, who is a great HW champion, regardless of size and regardless of your opinion, and was undefeated. You give Bowe's accomplishments short thrift and ignore the man's obvious skills which were considerably more than "infighting".

You have established yourself as the emoticon king and the god of redundant, single-issue posts. "Bowe can't evade the jab" and my analysis sucks.

Okay, your opinion has been noted, now go back to the lounge before I chase you out of here.

 

Bowe and Lewis have something in common here then, people soon wrote off Mason 35-0, Jackson 30-1-0 and Briggs 30-1-0 after Lennox defeated them too.

 

Sound analysis is reliant on objective facts and valid inferences. Care should be taken with injecting it with subjective opinion and assumptions. You have done that. I made known my dissent because Bowe's skills were being overlooked and the argument against him revolved around a loose -and in my opinion careless- theory about his trembling at the mention of Lewis's name.

You believe that Bowe was intimidated and that would factor into the match-up. I don't -necessarily- see it that way and have chosen instead to give him the benefit of the doubt in order to maximize the integrity of the fantasy match-up.

Gonzalez wasn't even close to Lewis in terms of greatness and that was never asserted. He was offered as an example of 1. Bowe's ability to handle larger men, 2. Bowe's ability to overcome a loss in the amateurs, 3. Bowe's right hand (which has been totally underestimated on this thread), and 4. Bowe's excellent offensive arsenal -to wit, the short punches delivered inside loops.

Simply because Bowe whipped Gonzalez doesn't mean that he would thus and therefore beat Lewis. It simply suggests that Bowe had the tools to handle larger men who have a loose similarity to the Lewis style and who beat him in the amateurs. Your use of Briggs, Grant, and Vitali to demonstrate Lewis's ability on the inside doesn't determine his ability to beat Bowe inside any more or any less.

As to Lewis's durability -he struck me as durable, but I differentiate between that and the chin. I do question Lewis's chin. Bowe's power could dent that chin and not one post from the other side has acknowledged that... so I will. Bowe has a decent chance to find Lewis and put his lights out particulary if Lewis fights aggressively. Bowe is an extremely intelligent brawler when sharp. Lewis physically overwhelmed lesser fighters when he was aggressive but Bowe not only outbrawled Holyfield, he did so tactically.

You assert that Bowe struggled more than Lewis during their primes and in their winning efforts. That doesn't prove much. Bowe struggled most notably against Holyfield; but I suspect that Holyfield at 32 or even 34 would have beaten Lewis. Lewis was stopped twice in his prime -by two guys who I'd bet the house would have been beaten by Bowe. Bowe struggled more than he should have because he chose not to struggle in training camp, but Lewis was rendered horizontal and he was absolutely in shape both times. Bowe fared better albeit against lesser competition but he looked like Riddick Blimp.

Lewis struggled mightily against the extremely durable but one dimensional Mercer. I found Lewis impressive in that one, but he was outjabbed from beginning to end -why? Because he carried his right by his chest and was unable to parry the incoming jab. It is rare indeed that Ray Mercer outjabs anyone.

You conclude with the statement that you believe Lewis should be favored over Bowe due to

... I would to! But you forget that my position favoring Bowe is heavily conditioned. I conceded long ago that Bowe was rarely the force he should have been and could have been. Bowe lacked the discipline to maintain the optimum level of performance that he was capable of. At his best, however, I see him outbrawling Lewis and possessing the skills to outbox Lewis. Manny Steward, who I think deserves most of the credit for Lewis's big wins, would be outstrategized by Futch. All day. I don't see Lewis taking over the fight for the extent of it -Bowe was demonstrably able to take it back when push came to shove.

It is the belief of Stonehands that an inspired, 235 pound Bowe would take a decision the first time... but lose the rematch at 250 pounds and when he came in dehydrated and Futch-less at 230 for the rubber, he'd lose that too. Therein lies my sole concession to the general consensus led by Sergeant Spoon.

...by the way, glad to see you back at ESB.

 

Absolutely a good observation. People have that tendency to criticize the movers and shakers of the past based on information that came later -and often times the dismissal of the accomplishment is because of the accomplishment itself.

Colonel Jessup from "A Few Good Men" is echoing in my head for some reason.... ["I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it"]

 

Gonzales wasn't thought of that highly, to be fair.

Boxing writers kept asing why is this amatuer king with wins over Bowe and Lewis was giving such sloppy performances as a pro.
Very few were convinced about Gonzales, and it came as no big surprise when Bowe beat him.

 

Well put mate.

 

We have different opinions on the unknown quantities, but it was welcome to hear an elaborated defence on Bowe.

Bruno was a huge puncher, and Mercer was a fiery tough guy -a few niggles, but Ted Spoon agrees to disagree on this. Not too sure whether Futch could have such an effect on Bowe where Lewis is concerned, but that is our stance.

 

Gonzalez Hide Mathis jr ? :roll: Third tier HWS.

And no Bowe did'nt do anything reallywell except infighting.

And if have said nothing which is not true.

Bowe could'nt evade a jab and had little to no defense and in a good hw era only fought one second tier hw and one elite hw.

Those are the facts and matter how many time you mention Gonzalez or Hide it wont change the fact that they where third tier hws.
Bowe is not the god who walked like a man you think he is.


And no idiot who actually dared to claim that Bowe was proficient in defense is going to run anyone out of here