1997 Lennox Lewis vs 1974 Muhammad Ali

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Oct 11, 2023.



Who wins and how

  1. Ali KO/TKO

    17.2%
  2. Lewis KO/TKO

    10.3%
  3. Ali decision

    44.8%
  4. Lewis decision

    27.6%
  5. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Gone Out For Teh Milk Full Member

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    I think guys like Wlad and Lennox would be the last guys in the world Ali would want to fight. He simply doesn’t have the style for them IMO.
     
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  2. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    This is delusional. Foreman and Liston landed face punches, especially Foreman. A big part of why they didn't land as much as you maybe wanted them to is due to Ali's headmovement no?

    You cannot use them not hitting Ali in the face as evidence of what Lewis would do in a hypothetical without credit of what he did in the actual fight.

    Believe it or not, it's not that easy to keep on hitting an elite fighter in the face consistently when they have good reach, good legs and distance negotiation.

    Ali may not have had the legs of old, but he didn't have no legs whatsoever. This is 1974 Ali - he was ready to dance and trained for it. Foreman, the ring and the conditions necessitated another strategy. Lewis doesn't have Foreman's footspeed or ring cutting ability so this fight won't resemble any rope a dope tactics unless played out in the same ring conditions and here I would likely steer to the guy who's proven in tough 15 round fight conditions versus the guy who hasn't done so, in a battle of attrition.

    As I said, this fight can go either way - it is certainly not over as soon as Lewis lands a right hand. Of the two fighters, only one has been stopped with a single right hand and on more than one occasion. I have no problem with anyone picking Lennox but not based on things that just didn't happen in the context of both of their careers.
     
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  3. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hi Buddy.
    Like what you are saying, and it is a balanced and thoughtful prognosis of how the fighters act and react to a certain condition, maybe unwisely the Ali of 70 onwards, made a career out of taking the other fighters punches, no matter how hard they hit, Lyle, Shavers, Foreman, Bonavena, Quarry, the list goes on, and then countering back with solid, hard, accurate, shots of his own, nearly all of the above succumbed to this strategy, and I am not sure the outcome would be any different with Lewis in the opposite corner, it may, but there are doubts, for me anyway.
    Enjoy your posts, you show a good insight into fights, and fighters, chat soon.
    stay safe hombre.
     
  4. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Thanks Mike,

    I still shadow and sometimes spar so know what it means to take a punch or a kick to the face, stomach or legs. It bemuses me when people say things about fighters without realising how hard it is to fight a man who is as good or sometimes better than you are.

    In a battle of KO fighter versus proven great chin, when the dimensions are similar and the proven chin is a superior in speed, arguably ring IQ, stamina and durability, I tend to lean towards the guy who has the the chin.
     
  5. slash

    slash Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali decision. Might knock him out (Lewis would leave him no choice).
     
  6. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lewis couldn't stop Holyfield or Mercer. This nothing against Lewis, you could hardly pick two more difficult guys to stop... except maybe Ali.

    Is it possible that Lewis wins a decision? Sure. He'd be, by far, the most skilled big hitter Ali faced (on the night they were in the ring -- Liston wasn't great on the nights he fought Ali) with, by far, the highest ring IQ of any big hitter Ali faced (again, on the night they were in the ring). And no, don't give the subtle skill and ring IQ of 45 year old Foreman to 25 year old Foreman.

    But stop Ali? I just don't see it happening. I actually think there's a non-zero chance that Ali knocks out Lewis.

    Would be a fight either way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2023
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  7. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

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    LOL@you............but "World Beaters" like club fighter Purrity, Heavy bag impersonater Brewster , a flash in the Pan Golfer, glass chinned Hasbeen and a certified Drug addict in McCracken have the "style" to beat them instead of Ali.............
     
  8. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

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    97 Lewis would not show up at 245 pounds vs a 74 Ali fighting in the 70's instead of Foreman, he would be 230 max to last 15 rounds.

    Lewis has no fights over 15, Ali has plenty.

    Lewis was never a conditioning monster, his Ring IQ allowed him to dictate the pace in most but not all cases, when pressed he was huffing and puffing late............he will not have the luxury to dictate the pace vs Ali who will turn the heat up the longer it goes.

    If McCall and Rahman can land straight rights so will Ali and Lewis does not have a great left hook to trouble Ali's weakness for it, and yes, the left hook vs Bruno was a desperation punch , not a strategy.

    Lewis when faced with opposition he respected turned quite tame as witnessed vs Oldiefield, the One Trick Pony Tua or the Ghost of Mike Tyson.and played it very safe.

    Consider Ali's mind games pre and during the fight, a most likely hostile crowd like in the Foreman fight, outdoor arena at tremendous heat and humidity, possible Ring tricks, poor food etc and it all points to a decisive Ali win.
     
  9. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali was 18 after the Olympics. Lewis was 23. 18-23 are big years for growth and putting on a lot of weight.

    Although in my case 40-45 were my prime years for moving through the weights.
     
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  10. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lets not make 97 Lewis into some mythical beast. This was the year he turned up fat and looked, understandably, wary against a crying McCall. But he couldn't move him even when allowed a free shot. He touched down against Akinwande and again failed to impress though, again, probably not his fault. Then there was Golota who, we are told, had taken medication and shouldn't have been in the ring.

    I say, let's give Lennox benefit of doubt here regarding the Golota match. He looked excellent against an opponent seen as being a severe test. Even so, that's still some way short of a stellar year. But it's hard to gauge his form when two of the three fights were disqualification freak shows.

    So, for a fairer view, go either side of 97. In 96, He squeaked past Mercer who, in 97 barely got by 39 year old Tim Witherspoon. Then 98 had the Briggs and Mavrovic fights. One great performance, one very average. So 96 and 98 were less than stellar years too.

    Ali in 74 had all the tricks and could probably compete with Lewis for strength. Speed, stamina are all on Ali's side and his chin negates the power difference. I go Ali on points. I think he's better than Mercer or Mavrovic, both of whom fought what I would consider the likeliest version of a 97 Lewis.
     
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  11. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Gone Out For Teh Milk Full Member

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    Ken Norton
     
  12. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Please point me to the fight where Norton stopped Ali.

    WK and Lewis where stopped by absolute B and C level fighter in their Prime. End off. Without stopping those two all of the five would not even be a foot note in the Big picture.
     
  13. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Gone Out For Teh Milk Full Member

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    Ken Norton whose other best win was shot Quarry might’ve gone 2-1 some say 3-0 over Ali. But at the worst he absolutely ran Ali to the limit. A club fighter.
     
  14. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Putting the 74 Ali that faced Foreman against Lewis is taking a custom built and specifically strategised version of Ali, designed for the opponent at hand.

    I can’t say for sure what 74 Ali might’ve deemed to be his best shape and optimal strategy for Lewis - I would say it would be obviously less likely that specifically purposed Zaire version would be turning up for Lennox.

    For the Frazier and Norton rematches, Ali came in relatively light, at about 212 1/2 lbs a piece. Dancing weight as Ali liked to call it.

    Ali was 216 1/2 lbs for Foreman, looking extremely well conditioned but that bit thicker and stronger.

    Ali’s purposed conditioning and weight for Foreman has had me previously question Ali’s alleged pre med intent to dance - or, at the least, question how much dancing Ali actually intended to do.

    I think 74 Ali could get over the top of Lewis - no walk in the park though and I would allow for some measure of purposed conditioning and innovative strategy customised exactly for Lewis.

    For one thing, would Ali come in at dancing weight, punching/grappling weight or something in between?

    I’m not Ali but I’d probably choose the middle option. I think he’d want the mobility when needed but also a good measure of power to keep Lennox honest.
     
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  15. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Yes, as a fighter, I would put Ken in the “A” club also. :lol: