1997 Lennox Lewis vs 1974 Muhammad Ali

He was good but simply no Tire Iron Jones.

 

One major and fatal plot hole - Kenny, The Herculean Jaw Breaker, was actually real.

 

Is he? The one described here certainly isn’t.

 

I was once!! Sadly no longer. I'm old enough to remember Hagler v Hearns if only I was young enough to actually remember anything.

 

No, this is reality.

Didn't you read what I said ?!?
My point was they did not land in the same manner Shavers did, the same type of bombs.
Shavers landed 3 or 4 punches where he got to put a lot of body weight behind them, they did not.

You are right, but that's besides the point. And the point is had they landed in the same manner Shavers did, they would have taken Ali out.

I can more than use them. Since they did not land, how could they win ?!?
What I am implying is that unlike them, Lewis will be able to land, and when he does, it's lights out for Ali.

Lewis is way faster than Foreman. Foreman was slow as a snail.

Lewis hits harder and is more accurate than Shavers, so it will be over if he lands a bomb.

 

What year did Ali fight Shavers and after which fights and after what level of career damage accumulation?

They didn't land like Shavers because Ali still had his reflexes and ability when he fought them, unless you are suggesting that Shavers was a better fighter than Liston and Foreman.

Lewis has faster hands, yes, does he have faster feet than Foreman? More importantly, does he cut the ring as quickly or as educated as Foreman? No - so the slow as a snail sentiment that you've said - are we talking pure handspeed or are we talking footspeed or reflexes or jab or ability to throw short punches?

Ali has a chin and an undoubted ability to take punishment to the body. As soon as Lewis lands he most certainly doesn't bomb Ali out - when did that ever happen to Ali? This isn't the Shavers version, this is 1974 Ali who was fighting for his title and whose self-belief defied critics, boxing observers and many people in his own camp who doubted him. Don't underestimate the effect of self-belief in a fight - the likes of Ali, Ray, prime Roy, who are physical talents at their absolute pomp beat more technically competent fighters on speed and the conviction of their own ability more often than not. When you add in ability to take punishment that Ali showed that trumps what Lewis showed in his own career, these effects are magnified.

I want to be polite here - I don't believe that you understand some of the dynamics of a prize fight outside of size and speed. Lewis is the fighter here bombed out by one right hand. Lewis is the fighter here unproven in a 15 round fight. Lewis is the fighter here that's not been in with a fighter of Ali's calibre and yes, Lewis will be the best fighter that Ali had faced but Ali has fought closer to Lewis' level than Lewis has to Ali's level.

Again, I reiterate, this is a very close fight and I don't see either being knocked out. You're taking the Ali that fought Foreman and assuming he rope-a-dopes versus Lewis without taking into reflection Foreman's footspeed, strength beyond his dimensions, power in both hands and the ring canvas and climate conditions on that fateful night. If the same conditions were in play and having watched how Lewis played out fights against live fighters that he respected/was weary of, he isn't bombing out Ali and potentially he is the one at risk from the conditions and fighter facing him.

 

Did Lennox ever fight at 4 o clock in the morning outside and in 80 degrees 80 degrees humidity weather?

 

I'm not seeing the relevance?

 

Not to argue for any earth shattering point either way - while it’s been noted before it hasn’t really been heavily accented on - the ring in Zaire was crazily small - very much in Foreman’s favour - and George could cut a good sized ring off at any rate.

Ali dealt with and adapted to his own disadvantages without too much squeaking.

There was also the soft, slow canvas in Zaire to be getting on with.

Throw anything at Ali and more often than not (if not always) he knew how to turn it to his advantage or modify himself in order to neutralise the potentially negative effects.

 

I suspect ThatOne is suggesting that Ali fought in adverse conditions that Lennox hasn't replicated/experienced similar conditions to.

Relevancy is dependent on whether you draw any inference about intangibles and ability to rise to the occasion and perform, if my suspicion is correct.

 

I know Ali had better reflexes vs them, my point was him surviving them is not proof of him having the ability to take their best shots, but rather proof of him being able to avoid getting hit by them.

Lewis is faster than Foreman is every metric. Foreman was just slow.

Agreed, Ali has tremendous body endurance.

Yes he will if he catches him flush with a punch like the ones Shavers landed. That's cause:
A. Lewis hits harder than Shavers
B. Lewis won't just stand there like an idiot after landing a big shot, the way Shavers did, he's gonna land countless more, throw a combo and finish Ali off.

Again with this stupid statement !!!
How can that happen if the big hitters he faced did not land flush bombs ?!??
Lewis definitely will.

It doesn't matter what version of Ali it is, Lewis beats them all.

Self belief does not mean ****. If the other guy is better, you're gonna loose.

Cause he was actually hit with one, unlike Ali.
The shot that Rahman hit Lewis with would have taken out any version of Ali.

Who says it's gonna be a 15 round fight ?!?
Why can't it be 12 ???

It's the other way around. Ali has never faced anyone as good as Lewis, while Lewis has beaten better boxers than Ali. Granted, he did not face them at their absolute best, but still.

Lewis is more skilled than anyone Ali has ever faced. He's also stronger and has a bigger reach. He's definitely gonna land big at some stage and when he does, it's nighty night for Ali.
The only way Ali survives until the end is if he runs all night, in which case he's gonna loose on points by a mile.

 

Why do people use the 1970's Ali when they do a 'fantasy' fight? Why not use the "prime' Ali?....(1964-1967)..

 

If he's fighting Kinshasa Ali he's fighting at 4 o clock in the morning in 80 degrees humidity and 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Yes it was. Ali's chin was tested more than plenty.

Liston was still close enough to his prime, he wasn't that old, and didn't land anything good much less any bombs because Ali was already way above him at that point until he was literally blinded then took a few slight good hits and still never showed signs of damage.
Foreman landed a few good hits on Ali's head, and many many powerful blows to Ali's body, and Ali took it all despite the scorching heat.
He took more than just three shots from Shavers, who did hit even stronger than the 2 you mentioned, which can be backed up by multiple heavyweights, and Ali was already far into the stages of parkinsons, and he lasted the full 15 and still came out on top at the end turning his engine on and almost knocking Shavers out.

Frazier said that he hit Ali with shots that could have brought down the walls of a city during their long bouts, and didn't understand how Ali was able to take it during all those rounds. Ali went 44 rounds with Frazier

Ali had punch drunk syndrome very early on because of how many blows he took to the head in all his sparring to build his chin and body, especially after he lost his legs
He's the fastest moving heavyweight of all time and was at his best when he had his hands down, so him having a good record when it comes to a good chin or any real durability is beyond amazing.

Ali did more than prove to have a good chin after all the wars he was in. On top of being the fastest, he's also one of the most unyielding heavyweights too, and that combination is one of the many reasons why he's the top dog