1997 Lennox Lewis vs 1974 Muhammad Ali

Why anyone has been bringing up the Holyfield fight in the last few pages is absolutely beyond me. Thats pretty much the equivalent of me saying, ‘well look what Frazier did to an even better Ali 3 years prior’

The only real formula we have for beating Lewis was catching him with 1 punch. Other than that, his closest fights were probably against Mercer and Holyfield 2. Come forward, high pace and aggressive fighters, which as I mentioned earlier, isn’t anything close to what Ali brings.

We have a fully focused Lewis, with Steward in his corner, with all the physical attributes and technical ability to make this a nightmare match up for Ali. Lewis has, the reach, the jab, the inside game, the footwork, the power, decent hand speed and decent fight IQ. Hell anyone that thinks Ali is going to ‘wear him down’ should really go rewatch Lewis in the mid 90s, the man had more than good stamina.

Almost 700 punches thrown against Tua
Over 600 against Holyfield in the first fight.
Over 500 against Mavrovic
Over 500 thrown in 10 rounds in a gruelling fight against Ray Mercer.

Everyone else in that time period? Flattened inside 6 rounds.

The only argument I see for Ali is…. Well it was Ali, he was just the greatest. There is merit to that, but if you give me 70s Ali on tape Vs mid/late 90s Lewis on tape they don’t even look close.

I’ll take Lewis 8-4 or 9-6 although entertaining a 15 round fight is a little tricky as Lewis is for the wrong era for that.

 

In a 15-round fight I would definitely pick Ali. Lewis didn't have the greatest stamina, he has never stopped any opponent past 8th round in his career. Ali would certainly last till 8th and then he takes most of the late rounds, stoppage win for Ali in rds 12-15 aren't out of question too.

 

What are you basing Lewis not having good stamina on? I get your point about the 15 rounder as Lewis isn’t used to fighting these.

If you go watch the fights I’ve listed above, I struggle to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that Lewis didn’t have anything but very good stamina.

 

He did have fine stamina for such a big man, but certainly not on Ali/Holmes level.

Lewis was uncomfortable with Mavrovic' high pace, that was the main reason he didn't stop unheralded Croatian opponent.
Mercer's pace was also a hard puzzle for Lennox.

He likes to control the pace of the fight (which was in most of his fights). He feels very comfortable then and can hit his opponents at will, then take a break.

Lewis didn't control the pace in Mavrovic, Mercer and Klitschko fights. But he still kept himself well in those fights till the end, which is proof that he has good stamina. Just not the best.

And the only opponent that Lennox dropped after 8th was well past-it 35 y.o. Tony Tucker, who quickly got up and bettered Lennox for the rest of that round. Lewis certainly can get tired against Ali.

 

The main reason he didn’t stop the Croatian was because he had a god tier chin, albeit for 1 fight. GOD DAMN some of the shots he took and I don’t think he was ever wobbled in the fight!

Mercer for sure I agree with. Lewis couldn’t stop Mercer from fighting his fight and that was pretty much, don’t take a backwards step. But again stylistically what does that do for us in this match up?

Do we really think Ali is going to be pressing the pace? Or is he going to his usual early 70s stuff and bob around on his feet on the outside leaving his chin exposed against a 250 lbs power puncher with a longer jab than his?

What I see a lot with Ali when he’s in some of these tough matchups, people hyper focus on 1 or 2 points and ignore the rest of the disadvantages he has.

Well yeah, Lewis is bigger, stronger, hits harder, has a better inside game, matches him for a jab, has better fundamentals, is better than him technically, but Ali just has better stamina, probably out lasts him and stops him late.

It’s such a boring narrative to me and is the lazy option. Maybe if I was older than 30 I’d think differently.

 

Ali also did have better survival skills and recuperative abilities than Lewis, and in terms of overall speed and reflexes he was at that time still A-level. It's not that easy

 

Mercer fought a great fight and it could easily have been scored in his favor. But Lewis did let himself be caught up in a grinding war against a guy as tough as old boot leather, a guy who knows he's as tough as old boot leather and relies on it to enable him to take risks. You can't assume Mercer wouldn't try certain things because they'd leave him wide open, because he would try them and just assumed if he got tagged that he'd be fine. That's why he looked so good against Lewis. If he hadn't had that ATG chin, he'd have been knocked out multiple times during that fight, or at least severely hurt, and the opinion of the fight would have been that he was reckless.

Hey, I've got a recent example of something like this. AJ got knocked out because he landed a big right, then immediately charged in with an uppercut that left him open to a counter. He took a risk, but lost the fight due to it. Mercer? He'd take that risk every time it was available against Lewis because, unlike AJ, it not working out wouldn't ice him.

 

Ali would 100% have survived the two shots that knocked Lewis out. That certainly counts for something.

 

You laughing won't change that fact.

 

As I said to someone else, I don’t want to derail the thread. It’s Ali vs Lewis, not Foreman. I’ll see you in the next Foreman-Lewis topic.

 

For me it's really as simple as a small ring and excellent performance by Mercer with one other proviso - Lewis was also still in the early stages of transition with Manny Steward and tho heading in the right direction was still a ways from having it embedded e.g. as well as vs David Tua.

Watch the fight. Mercer would push Lewis back and in a couple of backward steps he'd already be on the ropes. It really was a tight ring.

I agree his ATG chin stopped him from getting KO'd multiple times, man he took some shots.

Lewis had to "fight" him off much of the night as trying to moved backwards just wasn't going to do much of anything for him. He was penned. As a matter of fact Steward told him the last two rounds were going to determine the fight (Manny still thought Lewis was ahead after 8) and Lewis went out and won them. You'll also find Manny had him aggressively chasing round earlier in the fight. In actuality Lewis followed his corners advice all night. I find the "controversy" somewhat overstated. It was a close fight but Lewis' second half of the bout certainly got him home for me personally. We did a scorecard thread and a bunch of posters that took their scoring serious had Lewis the winner, maybe even unanimously. There were some close cards but they all went the way of Lewis.

 

Liston wasn't over 40. you have zero genuine evidence to back that up. already proved you're willing to just say **** for the sake of backing your point of view even if it has nothing actually backing it up.
I said Liston didn't land any real genuine clean hits on him, that's it. Can you not read? Real genuine clean hits that could knock ali out, Liston didn't land any of that. other fighters did and Ali never went out, not even close
Ali being blinded doesn't rely on Liston using an illegal substance you nincompoop. He was blinded and it was clear as day and it hasn't been disproven at all. you clearly don't understand what proof and evidence are.
I didn't say Foreman landed full power bombs on Ali's head. He did land hits on his head a few times, and landed many hits to his body. you can look past that all you need to to keep believing that Ali didn't prove to have one of the greatest chins of all time. Ali was built. His entire head, his chin, his mouth and tongue, his arms, his legs, his sides and stomach. He was extremely durable and athletic and proved to have a durable body and chin many times and you are trying to defend a horrible opinion lmao.
He did take shots from Shavers, more than 3, hard shots, to the face and body. Ali's entire body was totally into it and he took that and staggered and had to hang on the ropes once. It was one of the few fights where he did take clean hits to the head, and it was against one of if not the hardest heavyweight hitters ever and he never went down from the hits and it went the full 15 rounds, and Ali still came out on top by almost overwhelming Shavers in the end
Fighters that fought both shavers and foreman all say Shavers could hit harder. you can pretend to know more all you want but anyone who actually knows **** won't care, dummy. Shavers blew up his ****ing glove once from a punch and he was hitting Ali's face with that. Deny it all you want because you need to because it completely trounces on your whole "Ali never proved to have a chin" ****.
Ali did have parkinsons as early as '74 and there are experts that have spent years studying Ali that agree with me. You are the one who talks crap
What Frazier says isn't meaningless. Frazier is one of the most skilled durable heavyweights of all time and had more class than anyone. How dare you disrespect him like that. Totally ****ed up lol
Ali developed punch drunk syndrome early on from all his constant sparring and desire to build his body and chin up from punches. you are projecting so hard calling me clueless over and over again.
Ali not getting hit from the two best hitters he faces, Liston and Foreman proves how good he was, not that he wasn't that durable. he did take more than enough clean shots to the face to prove his chin, and did more than prove his durability and stamina despite any proof of a chin by immediately getting right back up after the very few times he was ever knocked out. You're a total Ali hater who doesn't know jack ****.
When it comes to hand speed being utilized at all in a fight, not shadowboxing or some ****, he is. When it comes to eye-hand coordination, he is. And in everything else, he is. Ali was reported to be able to land a jab in less than 150 milliseconds and was over 200 pounds with a long reach and big hands. That's ****ing beyond bonkers.

Muhammad Ali will always be the top dog

 

No one beats that Ali. No one. He has the reaction time and accuracy of a genius surgeon yet moved like water. He could stand almost stationary and dodge headshots with real intent as if they were just going through him. People who sparred with 60's Ali would say he was a ghost and it was terrifying. He didn't move like a normal person. If late 60's Ali had even half the durability he showcased in the 70's, then there is no way anyone beats him. He had to go easy on people and would be lazy in training way more than people think because he was just so good.
if there is anything that makes me think there's a rhyme and reason n any purpose to ****, it's guys like Ali existing. He was born to be who he was. He was as close to being genuine and perfect as you can get in his craft. no other heavyweight boxer compares.

 

amen, couldn't have expressed myself better.
I think Lennox chances improve if he faced either the rusty, comeback version that faced Quarry/Frazier the first time in a boring clinchfest or the one that went against Foreman.