1997 Roy Jones easily beats any version of Rocky the BUM Marciano

I don’t think the stylistic argument for Jones is very strong to be honest.

Marciano is arguably the single most proven of all the heavyweight champions against slicksters, and everybody has some sort of problems with fighters of this type. He essentially fought in and dominated an era populated by technical boxers, and by definition these type of fighters remain competitive at the top level at a more advanced age than punchers. You couldn’t really ask him to do a lot more to make a case for him having the stylistic tools to beat Jones.

On his side of the stylistic argument, Jones carries quite a bit of baggage. He clearly doesn’t have the sort of durability that a lot of Marciano’s victims had. He basically has to not get hit. He has never really had to deal with a pressure fighter like Marciano, even in his own weight class, and I doubt that he has the power to get Marciano’s respect, and he certainly wouldn’t be strong enough to handel him in the clinches. He is faster than anybody Marciano has fought, and admittedly that provided a bit of an unknown factor, but you have the same issue matching Jones against any heavyweight.

Obviously we don’t know what is going to happen in a fight between two champions separated by half a century, but we are presumably talking about the balance of probability. Marciano has the credentials argument, the stylistic argument, and for once he even has the size argument. You think you “zee something” but it could well turn out to be willow the wisp!

 

What do you base Jones' lack of durability on? Outside of landing a clean punch on his jaw or temple (Glen Johnson), what are other cases where you saw him hurt/worn down/weakened? Punches to the body and arms he handled perfectly well.
If you think that Marciano wouldn't even notice Jones' power and would throw caution to the wind, show me where did that happen in actual fights? Like I said, he went ahead and started throwing punches without thinking of his own defense only when he had his opponents hurt. Before that it was - one or two punches, missed, pause to get into position again, and thus his punchrate dropped below 50 punches/round, sometimes very far below that figure. Clinches - once again, where did Jones show vulnerability in the clinches? He knows how to tie opponent up, only leaving his back as the possible target, hitting to which is against modern rules. No free space left and arms are put on top of opponent's arms to prevent both uppercuts and hooks, head is pressed against shoulder or the side of opponent's head to prevent getting headbutted.

 

If Marciano lands cleanly on Jones' chin - he wins. But what's the possibility that he does, unless we are talking of a 40-year-old Jones?

Show me where did he pound non-hurt Charles/Walcott/Moore with punches to the arms like that? If an opponent is standing flat-footed and just covering up his head with his arms, and not doing anything else, then Marciano can do that. But is Jones going to just stand there, a-la Tarver 1?

Again these fairy stories about old-timers having some subtle something that somehow isn't preserved on film, but they still had it, just believe it, they did! Where was Charles battered from pillar to post in the 2nd bout? Where was Walcott battered from pillar to post in the longer fight?

Walcott's punches weren't quite as unexpected as the ones Jones was used to throwing. He didn't have the speed and couldn't feint an opponent that he was going to throw one punch and surprise them with a completely different punch, as effectively and often as Jones did.

Much smaller? Pardon me? Marciano wasn't some super heavyweight, he was a smallish cruiserweight, over-sized light heavyweight. If Marciano is just going to shove Jones around in the clinches what damage does that do to Jones? He's gonna tire him by raising him in his arms and carrying around?

 

Some of Marciano's opponents? You know my view on heavyweights. Just because some P4P fifth-rater stood there flat-footed trying to cover up his head from Marciano's punches, using no upper body movement and no footwork, doesn't mean Jones is gonna do that.

Walcott was worn down? Charles was worn down the 2nd time?

Watch Walcott in his fights with Charles. It's ordinary slugging 95% of time, with little feinting or tricks of any kind. With Jones you don't know what he's gonna throw most of the time.

What's significantly bigger? Jones was no midget himself, and neither were many of his lhw (weigh-in time) opponents. Who exactly was Marciano handling in the clinches? This is not a weight-lifting competition, where you just need to be stronger than your opponent. You probably know of Johnny Coulon's trick of him daring anyone to lift him, while not quite relevant, but this analogy should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

If Jones has to resort to clinching just occasionally, and with his clinching skills, and with his pre-coming-down-in-weight stamina, nothing's gonna happen.

 

The case for Marciano:

Obviously we can’t be sure of the outcome of a fight between two fighters from different eras, but we would be justified in favouring Marciano, because he beat this great fighter, negated this great technician, withstood this dangerous puncher, shoved this big heavyweight round in the clinches, and dominated an era populated with technical boxers.

The case for Jones:

It is a matter of certainty that Jones would win, because he beat this second tier light heavyweight contender, dominated this light heavyweight who moonlighted as a taxi driver, negated this super middleweight fringe contender in the clinches, and only got knocked out by punches that actually landed on his chin.

 

haha it is the problem, that some people think that if 2 men weigh around the same they are naturally equal in size... the weight proves ****... marciano had a robust frame ready to carry more weight and made to take shots from big men, another thing is being a fragile framed guy who did add muscle and his weight is mass, not natural weight of frame, fore example david haye weighed 217 pounds and foreman weighed 217 for the first frazier fight.. do you think that haye has the natural size of foreman in frame ? roy jones was fragile to survive vs rocky marciano and jones never faced a guy as strong as rocky or as good

 

You're obviously looking for attention... I guess I'm taking the bait.

1997 Roy Jones Jr. you say? In 1997 Jones went 1-1 (1) vs. Montell Griffin.
In their first fight Griffin gave Jones problems. Thru the first 8 rounds I had Griffin up by 2 points and the fight was close on all 3 cards (2 for Jones, I for Griffin). In the 9th round Jones hurt Griffin and Griffin took a knee. While Griffin was down Jones hit him again and was DQd. Jones jumped on Griffin right away in the rematch and won by 1st round stoppage.

Prior to that fight Jones had wins over a pre-peaked Hopkins (7 rounds to 5, both men improved after this fight), Thomas Tate KO2 (who was deep into his drug addiction at this point and would greatly improve at 168Lbs.), Toney (who looked like he didn't even train, Toney was made to order for Jones anyway though), a 137 year old Mike McCallum (after the fight Jones had 2nd thought about staying at LHW, McCallum gave him troublee trouble, especially in the 1st half of the fight).

After Griffin he beat a past prime and weight drained Virgil Hill. Hill had already looked awful vs. Michalczewski and had trouble with Del Valle (who would later drop Jones). Hill had trouble making 175 for several years and after Jones he moved up to CW. Hill wasn't even ranked and it wasn't for a title. Good body shot though. He struggled with Eric Harding (who could have been much more if he had more power) but won by 10th round TKO (Harding had an arm injury). I had the fight even after 10 rounds.

Jones moved up to HW to fight the made to order John Ruiz. Ruiz fought well for about a round and a half. After that he tried to outbox the much quicker and elusive Jones. Jones picked him apart after that and won 8 or 9 rounds.

Back to LHW and Tarver gave Jones much trouble. The first fight was close and many felt Tarver deserved the win. In the rematch Tarver KTFO of Jones and stopped him in the 2nd round. Jones did just enough to last the distance in their 3rd fight.

So, are we talking about this Roy Jones Jr.?

Look, Jones was great but I don't see him beating Marciano. The ability to take punishment and give punishment is being greatly ignored here.

Walcott and Moore were as good as ever when they fought Walcott, no reason to think otherwise. Both could give and take much better than Jones. They weren't as fast as Jones but they were more technical than Jones. Jones relied on his reflexes more than his skill.

Charles was fast, maybe not as fast as Jones at this point but more skilled. Yes, he was a little past prime but he was well prepared and really came to fight both times vs. Marciano. Now, who won these fights again? You're acting like these guys beat Marciano. Last time I checked he went 6-0 (5) vs. Louis, Walcott x2, Charles x2, and Moore... all Hall of Famers.

 

janitor
I'm tired of this ping-pong game. You can think that you won the argument if you want.

 

....against a former CW who lost to Sergey Kobozev at 190. At HW, Ruiz was outboxed by Nicholson at HW, lasted 19 seconds with Tua, and went 1-1-1 (0) vs. a way past prime Holyfield. After Jones he was outboxed by former MW James Toney (later changed to a NC), and was stopped by former CW Haye.

Jones couldn't have beat Walcott, Charles, or Moore when Marciano beat them. I'm not sure that he could have beaten the way past prime Joe Louis that Marciano beat. Give and take... what can you give, what can you take... it's not everything, but it's a lot. It's one of the main reasons we have weight divisions.

Could Jones deal with Marciano's power? Would Jones best punch bother Marciano? I'm going with No and No.

 

:good

 

Pacquiao is quicker and a much better technical fighter than Valuev but... I know, extreme example. Marciano might not have been a huge man, but Jones would feel like he was fighting a giant.

 

There doesn’t seem to be much common ground here.

I won’t say that I won the argument, I will say that my idea of how to deconstruct how a fight is likely to turn out obviously differs somewhat from yours, and leave it at that.