1st Round - 140 Pound Tourney - Carlos Ortiz vs. Joe Gans

I wouldn't call Ortiz a stalker in many of his fights at all, at least not for any length of time.

 

Which fights exactly he wasn't stalking in? I have the following fights:

19570123 Carlos Ortiz - Bobby Rogers
19580627 Johnny Busso - Carlos Ortiz
19590413 Carlos Ortiz - Len Matthews
19590612 Carlos Ortiz - Kenny Lane
19600204 Carlos Ortiz - Battling Torres
19620421 Carlos Ortiz - Joe Brown
19650410 Ismael Laguna - Carlos Ortiz
19660620 Carlos Ortiz - Johnny Bizzarro
19661128 Carlos Ortiz - Flash Elorde
19670701 Carlos Ortiz - Sugar Ramos
19670816 Carlos Ortiz - Ismael Laguna
19720920 Ken Buchanan - Carlos Ortiz

 

I don't have a habit of debating with myself on the forums or in real life.

 

Fighting off the backfoot, using the jab, digging to the body, leading with the right, etc.

[yt]yzgYHML5rbo[/yt]

 

He didn't consistently stalk in any fights of his i've seen.

 

When an opponent is coming to him all the time, obviously he doesn't need to stalk. Gans won't be coming to him. If watched attentively, Ortiz' jab was mostly missing the target (and Battling Torres is not really a defensive master) and he was getting mauled inside, his best work being done at mid-range the moment his man was rushing inside, when he could time this rush. When he didn't time the rushes, he was getting caught with clean flush punches to the head because of keeping his hands low and not doing much head or upper body movement.

 

So which fights exactly you have seen then, in this case I can conclude that in majority of them he wasn't stalking. You have more fights than what I listed, where he can be seen trying to box?

 

You are talking about results. He was good at achieving the result he wanted, that cannot be taken from him. But you gotta look at details of those fights, how well he fared in them and in what circumstances. Brown was 36 years old. Some were stepping up in weight class to meet Ortiz (Ramos, Elorde, Laguna).

In any case, meeting Gans would be very different from meeting the fighters you listed, different style, different abilities. You gotta find the details of how effectively he pressed his opponents, and what he did when they were trying to counter, how much punishment he received, what he did when things weren't quite going his way, etc.

Ortiz wasn't moving forward very fast even when stalking, except when he jumped forward with a swing to the head, or a hook to the body. Gans won't be running around the ring (he couldn't afford to, anyway, in those times of 20-25 rounds fights), he moved just enough to create or keep the distance that was most comfortable for him. If you start reading fights reports, you will often notice cases when he stepped out just enough to make an opponent miss, and then step in with right cross to the chin (almost always resulted in KDs or KOs), or catch the opponent with a hook or uppercut when they are jumping forward. He had excellent timing and sense of distance for counters. Ortiz was hit by counters very often in the fights I've seen, that's a no-no against Gans.

 

Battling Torres had Ortiz in trouble several times in the fight above (if the Youtube footage is the same as what I recorded from ESPN Classic, anyway), but was unable to follow his advantage. Ortiz' chin was very good, but not really invincible.

 

No.

 

Ortiz actually didn't stalk that much in the Brown fight; he worked the jab, and countered Brown's attempts to counter the jab with that sneaky right hand of his. Worked pretty well in that fight, and I think it would work pretty against Gans, too.

Ortiz UD 15

 

There is enough film on Gans and Leonard. It seems the voters are largely unaware of the abilities, and reputation of the old timers at 140. I agree with you. In addition, Armstrong lost in round one too.