20-Bout Run (Ali vs Holmes Comparison)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Mar 19, 2011.


  1. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Muhammad Ali------------- Larry Holmes
    Billy Daniels----------------Roy Williams
    Alejandro Lavorante--------Tom Prater
    Archie Moore---------------Horace Robinson
    Charlie Powell--------------Fred Houpe
    Doug Jones----------------Ibar Arrington
    Henry Cooper--------------Earnie Shavers
    Sonny Liston---------------Ken Norton
    Sonny Liston---------------Ossie Ocasio
    Floyd Patterson------------Alfredo Evangilista
    George Chuvalo------------Mike Weaver
    Henry Cooper--------------Earnie Shavers
    Brian London---------------Lorenzo Zanon
    Karl Mildenberger-----------Leroy Jones
    Cleveland Williams----------Scott LeDoux
    Ernie Terrell----------------Muhammad Ali
    Zora Folley-----------------Trevor Berbick
    Jerry Quarry----------------Leon Spinks
    Oscar Bonavena------------Renaldo Snipes
    Joe Frazier-----------------Gerry Cooney

    A 20-Bout Run, ending with each fighters most important fight.
    Matching talent and difficulty, this run is relatively close.
     
  2. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    More depth in Muhammad's resume.
     
  3. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    yeah ali needs those seventies fights to set him apart, no doubt about that... a more interesting topic perhaps is how would holmes have done if he'd fought the exact same fighters at the same time ali did? so in other words holmes (aged 22) against liston in '64, holmes (aged 29) against frazier in '71 (after holmes had been out of the game for 3+ years) etc. what would his record look like?

    no need to do this the other way around... pretty obvious that ali would have handled holmes' opposition well.
     
  4. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nice idea,but Holmes had n't yet turned professional at age 22. Holmes would have lost to Frazier if he'd been out for the same length of time that Muhammad had.
     
  5. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The 20-bout run starts from 5-fights before winning the title, and
    ends at Ali's first loss.
    Or each fighters most important bout.
     
  6. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    an oversight on my part. as ali turned pro at 18, and holmes at 23, holmes should start ali's career at 23, so that their career curves overlap as best as possible. fancy having a go at this? just do the big fights if you want.
     
  7. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    In the first bout of Match-Ups,
    I would consider Roy Williams a much tougher opponent than Billy Daniels.
    Roy had a much bigger punch, and was a more dangerous foe.

    Both fighters gave their opponents a tough battle,
    Billy Daniels vs Cassius Clay
    Roy Williams vs Larry Holmes

    Reverse the bouts at the same period in time.
    Larry Holmes would have probably stopped Billy Daniels by TKO in 6.
    Though undefeated at 16-0-0 (7 KO's), the 24 year-old Daniels was not considered a big puncher, rather regarded more as an awkward fighter.

    On the other hand, a 20 year-old Cassius Clay may have had his hands full with
    Roy Williams. At 6' 5', a tad taller than Billy Daniels, but at 230 lbs., he was nearly 40+ lbs. heavier and a much stronger fighter.
    Williams, at the time he fought Larry Holmes, was 31 years-old, and an
    experienced veteran 23-4-0 (17 KO's).
    Also, was avoided by many fighters, due to his strength amd dangerous
    right hand power.

    Both Cassius Clay and Larry Holmes were hit with right hands in their bouts with
    each fighter. And both were shaken.

    Cassius was hit by solid right hands (from a 189 lb. fighter) in Rounds 3 and 4.
    Also stung late in Round 5. What if the those right hands were thrown by Roy Williams?
     
  8. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Tiger" Williams was more of a left hooker than a right hand puncher. Dangerous perhaps but dangerous only when he decided to put up an effort which he didn't do 90% of the time. He was a sparring partner. Atleast Daniels came into the fight an unbeaten prospect though he was by no means a top fighter.
     
  9. hhascup

    hhascup Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Here's the top opponents Ali beat and there record at the time they fought:

    You can match any other Heavyweight opponents against Ali's and see for yourself.

    1. George Foreman 40-0-0
    2. Joe Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0
    3. Sonny Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0
    4. Ken Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0
    5. Floyd Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1
    6. Jerry Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4
    7. Oscar Bonavena 46-6-1
    8. Jimmy Ellis 30-6-0
    9. Zora Folley 74-7-4
    10. Ernie Terrell 38-4-0
    11. George Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2
    12. Ron Lyle 30-2-1
    13. Earnie Shavers 54-5-1
    14. Joe Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1
    15. Bob Foster 49-5-0
    16. Mac Foster 28-1-0
    17. Karl Mildenberger 49-2-3
    18. Archie Moore 184-22-11
    19. Jimmy Young 17-4-2
    20. Cleveland Williams 65-5-1
    21. Doug Jones 21-3-1
    22. Henry Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
    23. Leon Spinks 7-0-1
     
  10. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Alejandro Lavorante as compared to Tom Prater.

    Alejandro, a very good prospect, who suffered a tragic death, boxing related.
    But clearly a very good fighter, with power.

    Tom Prater, no easy guy.
    You better have been prepared when you fought him.

    A young Cassius Clay would have out-sped Tom Prater, but in a competitive bout.

    Larry Holmes, most likely would be cautious early against the hard-hitting Argentinian.
    But picking up the pace mid-way through the fight, en route to a stoppage.
    Say Round 6.
     
  11. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Let's not compare Horace Robinson to Archie Moore, no matter how old.
     
  12. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    All true, but Roy did possess a heavy right hand.

    In a match-up between Roy 'Tiger' Williams and Billy 'The Barber' Daniels, I'll go with Roy in a 5th round Knock-out.
    31 years-old, 6' 5" 230 lbs. 23-4-0 (17 KO's)
    24 years-old, 6' 4" 189 lbs. 16-0-0 (7 KO's)
     
  13. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Let's not forget though that Daniels did go the distance with Cleveland Williams while Roy Williams lost to Richard Dunn.
     
  14. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    :think


    Id consider the first Liston bout and the Foreman bout to be more important.

    But I can see where an Ali critic would say is first loss was his most important.
     
  15. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    if importance = hype + expectation beforehand, then frazier 1 was the most important. if we're using hindsight, then the foreman fight was ali's biggest win, and so could be considered the most important.

    that said, i'd combine the two criteria, and say that liston 1 was the most important.