33 years ago - Exactly how good was Buster Douglas?

I don’t think that he looked like the same Mike.

He looked lethargic.

He didn’t have the same upper body and head movement.

He looked gassed just before he was taken out.

A year later he went to war with Ruddock for 12 rounds, where he was still throwing power punches in the final round.

He looked much sharper with much more stamina.

Of course, it was a completely different stylistic fight, against a lesser skilled opponent. But the point is, Mike tired in a non fast paced fight in Tokyo, but didn’t in a really fast paced and aggressive fight against Ruddock.

IMHO, Ruddock would have knocked out the version of Mike who fought Douglas in Tokyo.

The Tokyo version of Mike was not the Mike that we were used to seeing.

The first Bruno fight actually showed us that Mike was slipping.

He looked different in that fight.

 

Now Holmes was scared?

Was he really?


He was dethroned by Spinks?

Many people think that they were very controversial defeats.


No, I haven’t omitted his other fights.

I simply said that he looked more impressive than Joshua in his biggest fights.


Do a poll.


No.

Nobody agrees with you on this.

Yes, it was a shock, but not as big as Tyson’s loss.


Yes, again, in hindsight, people could have thought differently.

However, again, Tyson was much more popular than Joshua, where it shocked even non boxing fans.


Yes, I’ve refuted your final big paragraph. It’s nothing without applying context. The sizes aren’t going to make a difference. Why? Because Mike was the King of boxing, whilst Joshua wasn’t, and had already looked vulnerable. So irrespective of the size difference, it was still a bigger shock. And it was a bigger shock based on everything that I’ve typed out previously. So I’m not typing it out again. I’ve refuted your points. You’ve just talked yourself into something, which you’re trying to pass off as being factual, again, without applying the relevant context needed.


I’ve got nothing else to say.

It’s just becoming tiresome now.

So unless you wish to do a poll or start a thread, I’ll say goodbye.

 

Your conclusions are sound overall.
Ill just add that relative to most HW champions Tyson beat at least good competition at his peak, in a short span of time.
I will not quibble about exact sizes-like Ruiz "only" 268 lbs.-but even if you take 2" off his listed height, he is not very near clinically morbidly obese.
Let's say moderately-severely obese.

 

"Now Holmes was scared?"

I could say he was "very wary" if you prefer. IIRC he started taking more risks in round 3 and got bombed out in round 4.

"He was dethroned by Spinks?"

Yes, it's a historical fact. Whether you agree with the decisions is irrelevant and fan consensus is that Spinks won fight 1.

"I simply said that he looked more impressive than Joshua in his biggest fights."

And less impressive in others, including title fights. There's no reason why only the fights against the terrified ex-LHW and the comebacking 2x victim of that ex-LHW should be considered.

"Nobody agrees with you on this."

Use some common sense. For starters, most Mexicans surely agree with me. And before you accuse them of bias you're an old head with your own biases.

"The sizes aren’t going to make a difference."

Even if you think factors on the other side of the argument matter more collectively, relative size differences do matter in determining how great an upset is. Tyson had 3 belts and was undisputed, Joshua had 3 belts and was the clear consensus No.1. Cool. Buster being 5.5 inches taller with 12 inches more reach was a huge advantage, just as Ruiz being 6 inches shorter with 8 inches less reach was a huge disadvantage.

"and had already looked vulnerable"

Tyson did look vulnerable in certain fights and not against a GOAT KO artist either. But media hype is very powerful, so powerful that Tyson was a 1/25 favourite against Holyfield after the Douglas KO and 4 years in prison and a 1/2 favourite in the Holyfield rematch. If we take hype out of the equation (the first line of my first post) and examine the facts, these losses were not great shocks.

"I’ve refuted your points."

There is no "refuting" the fact that for example, there had never been a Mexican heavyweight champion in boxing history (and only 3 challengers, who had been KO'd 6 times in 6 title fights), whereas there had been 23 black American champions (and who knows how many challengers). You haven't even addressed the majority of my original points, not that you were ever going to.

 

This will be my last post, and then we can agree to disagree.

Just out of interest, why would most Mexican’s agree with you?

Yes, they’d never had a champion at HW before.

But how does that ignore everything else?

Ruiz fought a guy who wasn’t universally considered the number 1 guy.

He fought a guy who looked vulnerable in his biggest fight against a faded fighter, and he had stamina issues.

So there were genuine question marks surrounding him.

Again, many people thought that Mike was unbeatable, because again, he beat higher quality opponents far more emphatically, where he had no rival to his number 1 position.

So even looking from the perspective of a Mexican fan, I don’t see why you think that the Ruiz win was more shocking, just on the basis that they’d never had a champion before.

Some people must have given Ruiz A chance. Whereas I don’t think hardly anybody gave Douglas a chance at all.

So it would be interesting if any Mexican fans could come forward and give us their opinions.

 

Agreed Tyson was a prospect against Tillis, and had a good/competitive learning fight vs a tough gatekeeper at that time. I don't think anyone at the time see this as Tyson getting exposed or looking vulnerable, it was more that Tyson had gone the distance for the first time, and had got some well needed experience.

His fight vs Green wasn't competitive, and Tyson won every round against a fighter who clinched and just wanted to survive, the samething for Bonecrusher.

And the fight vs Tucker who was 34-0 and ranked 3rd wasn't that competitive either. And if Joshua had beaten a highly rated undefeated fighter in the region of 9-3, 8-4, everyone would be singing his praises. I don't think anyone thought Tyson realistically looked "vulnerable" in any of these fights.

 

"This will be my last post"

I thought your previous post was your last post. Why should I believe you this time?

"why would most Mexican’s agree with you"

I gave you too much credit with the whole "common sense" thing.

"many people thought that Mike was unbeatable, because again, he beat higher quality opponents far more emphatically"

Tillis, Green, Ribalta, Tucker, Smith. So emphatic. And Tyson hadn't beat anyone as good/dangerous as Wlad.

"Some people must have given Ruiz A chance. Whereas I don’t think hardly anybody gave Douglas a chance at all."

Fuzzy, subjective nonsense.

 

I told you that I’d got nothing else to say, and that I wasn’t going to repeat myself.

I was polite to you.

I said that we could agree to disagree.

The reason I replied is because of what you said about Mexican’s agreeing with you.

Again, it would be interesting to do a poll, to start a thread, or to have the opinion of any Mexican fans who lived through Mike’s era. Because again, never having had a Mexican champ before doesn’t override everything else that I’ve said.

So if you start a thread, a poll, or you have any input from a Mexican fan, then please tag me. If not, we’ll leave it there.

I’ll catch you on another thread at some point.

 

He gassed because he was getting hit in the head, you don't think his eye closed due to bee stings do you?

 

He was gassed because he hadn’t trained to his full capabilities.

What do you think Ruddock was doing to him?

They went to war for 12 rounds.

Why didn’t he gas out then, when they were still throwing power punches in the final round?

 

Buster D was the best in the world Feb 1990. Before that he was a top contender very athletic, had power, was tall and rangy, very fast and had one of best left jabs. See the way he handled Mike Williams in 88 - put Williams down with a jab and stopped him. Williams was a very good fighter as well. It would take an exceptional boxer to beat Buster when he was on his game.