64 Liston vs 74 Ali

In terms of its support to his defence, I think the mobility and flexibility edge that Zaire Ali lost from his prime would allow Miami Liston to be that much more effective.

Compare the complexion and results of Ali- Chuvalo I (‘66) and II (‘72) for an example of a pre exile opponent doing that much better against post exile Ali. Though he didn’t have a back injury to contend with, even Patterson shined that much more v post exile Ali before eventually having to yield due to an eye cut.

Liston didn’t cut the ring like Foreman and wouldn’t fall dope to the rope a. In fact, picking his shots better than Foreman, Sonny might quite enjoy Ali laying back, inviting free shots.

Anyway, Zaire Ali would remain with the orig. plan to at least stay mobile for as long as possible. However, I see Liston finding the 32 yr old version a bit easier to catch on the move and Ali won’t stay on his toes through complete rounds anyway. Liston landed some terrific body shots in Miami, Dundee testifying to same after fight but the bout didn’t last long enough for the potential effect of slowing Ali right down though Ali wasn’t quite the live wire by the end of rd 6 himself.

The minimal number of rds fought by Liston in the few years preceding Miami were not at all ideal and the worst possible prep for for the likes of Ali. Also, whether Liston trained properly or not (though 218 was a bit heavy, about 212 lb was Sonny’s best weight) he didn’t appear necessarily gassed at all when he quit. Perhaps his shoulder was significantly impaired, perhaps not but either way, Liston appeared definitely frustrated and resigned to defeat well before time. It’s one thing to forecast the remainder of the fight playing out to Liston’s ultimate demise but it’s another thing again to have seen it play out in reality, anything can happen and that’s why other ATG’s never quit and hold out for a win, which has happened just as much as not.

However, as per the premise, whatever Liston’s physical state as at opening bell in Miami, we have to assume it to be the same for this hypothetical. A bit problematic since Liston did have the preceding issues with bursitis, his swing and misses quite possibly serving to exacerbate the condition, something which could happen in Zaire.

With better knowledge of Ali (Liston didn’t take him seriously at all prior to opening bell in Miami), sans possible shoulder injury and giving Liston absolute resolve to fight to the finish (a bit of a cheat given he didn’t show any such steel in Miami) I would give Liston a chance of giving Ali a pretty tough fight but Ali, based on and given credit for all his priors, deserving to be picked as a likely victor.

 

Excellent analyses!
Although I would ask how many of those hellacious body shots came when Ali was blinded by an illegal substance.
That is both unlikely to happen again & credit must be adjusted if lack of vision caused ALi to get caught more often or worse.
I do believe Liston had a legitimate shoulder injury,a number of Doctors confirmed it.
I cannot see how the swings & misses did not cause most of the disabling problem.
Like Byrd vs. Vitali.

 

Thanks. Nice analogy to Byrd v Vitaly re shoulder injury. Good point also re rd 5 when Ali’s vision was impaired. Due to the temporary handicap, Sonny did land a few extra body shots than he had been averaging up until that rd. Otherwise, the shots he landed otherwise were pretty decent and we might just give him the average of same for rd 5. By rd 6, Sonny’s volume for all punches dropped dramatically, likely attributed to his shoulder becoming that much worse.

 

Starting around 1958 he cleaned out the heavyweight division by knocking out just about everyone in contention for the title. He terrified the reigning champion enough that Liston was avoided until it was embarrassing for Floyd Patterson continue ducking.
He had awesome punching power in both hands, but he could box as well. Sonny was in the Joe Louis mold. Slugger/Boxer who set up his attack with a telephone poll left jab that was measured about 84 inches, uncommon reach for a 6-2 fighter.
Angelo Dundee was ringside scouting for young Clay when Liston hit Zora Folley with that jab and knocked his teeth out.

Those are a few things. Also most of these opponents Liston destroyed were good enough to challenge Muhammad Ali years later for the title. They couldn't have been too shabby....unless Ali is overrated?

 

Miami Liston was in 3 round shape. He was awful.

 

I agree, Ali indeed has the stylistic advantage, but to be 100% effective, his style required a younger body to help him move.
I disagree about Liston also falling for the rope-a-dope, he was a far smarter boxer than Foreman. He was also more skilled and accurate. If Ali stands still leaning on the ropes against Liston, he's dead meat. Liston is far more accurate than Foreman.

I disagree completely, I think he was a lot older.
In the 1940 census he was listed as 10 years old, which would make him 34 for the first Ali fight. Problem is that the paperwork was very sketchy back then. The guys who compiled the Census, all they did was to show up to a family's door, ask questions and take their word for it, without any documentation. Documentation wasn't even possible since Arkansas didn't have mandatory birth certificates back then.
The journalist Jerry Izenberg also says that Liston was a lot older than stated (at around 16:00 in this video):

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A lot of people close to Sonny said he was a lot older. His sister said he was born the year right after the great war, 1919, which would make him 45 around the time of the first fight.
I don't think he was quite that old, but was definitely 5-10 years older.

 

He cleaned out the division.

 

Agreed. Problem is prime Liston was around 58-60, not the 64 version.

 

74 Ali does not beat a prime Liston (58-60). But since this is a 64 Liston, anything can happen.

 

Great post.

 

Liston is more than capable of winning. He was a beast in his prime.
But this 64 Liston was past it, so Ali can more than decision him.

 

How exactly do people think Liston is winning this? Actually interested in the answers. Because I don't think Sonny is getting the KO...and Zaire Ali was in superb physical condition, tough as nails and still had some of the fastest and most accurate hands Ive ever seen. I think he would decision any Liston.

 

74 Ali ain't beating a prime Liston.
As for this matchup, Liston can win on points or even a KO, if Ali messes up. Remember that a 64 Liston was very old and did not take Ali seriously enough to train properly. Plus, Ali's biggest asset against Liston was his speed. 74 Ali did not quite have the same legs.

 

Zora, Patterson, Machen and Clevland...

 

Zora, Williams and Machen were shallow comp.

Marciano gets picked on for a bad resume I mean look at Sonnys.