70s Foreman vs Vitali Klitschko

Agree that he doesn't like to clinch. Not because he can't but because he is better from range.

Here's where we disagree. Foreman is going to pay a heavy price to get close to Vitali.

Lest we forget, Vitali was leading the fight on the scorecards and in the early rounds where he had clear vision, he was giving Lewis a shellacking, handily out-brawling him.

I think FOreman would indeed do better on the inside than the outside. But so would almost every other fighter Vitali faced. The question is (1) whether Foreman can get close enough to force an inside fight and (2) can he do it without getting an unholy pasting and (3) can he outbrawl the bigger man if he does so?

I think George would give a good account of himself up close. But I differ with you in the matter of him being able to do so and of him doing so without getting caught coming in all the time. Briggs tried and paid a heavy price.

 

Foreman of the 70's had a poor gas tank,was basically a bully who relied on size as his biggest attribute and sizing up this match up,well there weren't many big as we see now HW's back then. Ron Lyle was a close Foreman and we saw whar happened there. Lyle was about 220 and 6'2 who learned to box in prison,thats nothing compared toa 6'6 Olympic caliber giant who was much stronger than lyle in every way.

Foreman of the 70's would not have the mental advantage here,he was nervous of fraizer,imagine whata 6'7 250 guy with refined awkard skills would do who can take a punch and we know this b/c his record shows that,and he could and would have the option of doing a Jimmy young on him,clinch/hit....hit/clinch .

Lewis hit harder than Foreman and out sized /out skilled Foreman even in 2002 so we know Vitali would hold his own . I cant see Foreman winning here....Vitali gets a knock out b/c of foremans aggression he will force one on himself and leave him wide open with that poor defense ,hes not going to need to cut the ring off b/c vitali will be right there waiting to pummel him over.


Vitali by 6th rnd K.o.

 

poor ol vits gets wiped out early.

I don't think he'd get in the ring with a prime George after he experienced how good old lewis was.

 

This post more or less sums up my problem with a prediction for a Klitschko win, in a fantasy match-up with Foreman (or just about any ATG Heavyweight). I find it somewhat of a stretch to make Klitschko favorite to win and this is rooted in the fact that Vitali only ever fought one elite-level HW in his entire career and lost.

Even then, when in his prime, he was facing a much diminished opponent, in Lewis. Comparing an aged, disinterested, last fight of his career Lewis with a prime Foreman (and marking this version of Lewis as superior over Foreman) is just another example of how Klitschko garners credit of a mythical nature from a bout which, bar a few rounds in which he did surprisingly well (and with the only real standout round for him being round 2), was effectively an utter disaster for him. Lewis was no where near being on a par with prime Foreman by the time he faced Vitali, let alone superior.

Nonetheless - many consider this as one of the best performances, if not, the best performance of Vitali Klitschko. And, even if one does not agree with this - preferring to select another outing, either before or after this loss - no one opponent faced by Vitali can be considered remotely comparable to a prime Foreman. This means a whole lot of supposition needs to be made about Vitali, extrapolated from not a great deal.

Vitali's capabilities in a speculative bout against anyone, seem always to rely on his size, combined with some mythical description of his skills. And, this psychological edge Vitali would supposedly have? I feel quite certain that, despite Foreman's retrospective comments about meeting Frazier (after news of Frazier's passing), he would not have been the slightest bit concerned about Klitschko. Quite oppositely, I think it more likely that Klitshcko would become very quickly discouraged by a Foreman onslaught.

The idea, also, that Foreman somehow causes his own demise by stoppage, at the hands of Klitschko, demands that yet more unfounded powers be bestowed upon Vitali. Foreman was only ever stopped by one man - and that man was Muhammad Ali.

 

Thing is, McDeth more or less nailed it with his post. Foreman was used to bullying others with his size and strength. What would he do when the opponent was not only taller, bigger and stronger, but also technically better, with an ATG chin?

Vitali's abilities are rated very highly because he dominated virtually every round in his entire career save maybe a few that can be counted on one hand. His KO percentage is absurd and he could keep chugging away the entire fight long.

If we're talking about the Lewis fight then, frankly, that fight enhanced the reputations of both men. Vitali layed a beat down on an ATG champion (that I would favour against Foreman as well, btw) and basically lost because of an unlikely cut that would probably occur 1% of the time.

That idea is not far fetched at all. Frankly Foreman caused his own demise against Ali by punching himself out and gassing. If he had demonstrated better pacing like say, oh, I don't know, a Vitali Klitschko, for example, he may have beaten Ali.

 

vitali 100% failed whenever he stepped up to this level.

foreman had some success at atg level.

foreman crushes vits, a different league.

 

it only happened with ali in the ring. it didn't happen with any other - it wasn't George who did it, read what the man is saying and again stop arguing against impossible odds of every other foreman fight and pretending the ali fight was the norm for george not the other fights.

 

Interesting retort but I think to suggest McDeth "nailed it" with a post, which absolutely downplays Foreman's game, while elevating Klitschko's, does not seem to take into account the bias in the piece.

It's not balanced to rely almost exclusively on Vitali's size; even included in the description of him as an "Olympic caliber giant" (downgrading Lyle, in the same paragraph, to diminish Foreman's win against him). Then size is used again to suppose that Vitali would impose a fear factor on Foreman. Just a dreamed up plus-point for Vitali, with no adequately explored reasoning.


A single reference to Klitschko's "refined [awkward] skills" is made with no real evidence to explain and back up this claim. What does that phrase even mean?

I'm all for rating Vitali's abilities highly, within context of the opposition he faced. This and what you have written here underlines my point regarding the Lewis bout being the sole barometer for Vitali's standing amongst the greats. The 'cup is half full' view of the Lewis fight does as you do - relies on the percentage chance of Vitali having been cut. A broader perspective on that fight concedes how Vitali fought a bad fight and paid the price. His "refined" skills were obviously not on display that night.

Klitschko's KO percentage is only 3-points more absurd than Foreman's. And, at the time of his first retirement, Foreman's number would have been over 90%, in the same number of fights.

Making a reference to how Foreman might have fared better, if he had paced himself like Vitali, does not help your case, either - when you consider that in his biggest test, Vitali blew his stack, in less time and in less effort, against Lewis, than Foreman did against Ali.

Sure - Klitschko could pace himself during a fight, in which he could easily control his opponent. But, I doubt he could control Foreman easily, if at all.

Sorry - but it always seems obvious to me that Klitchko supporters, in such debates as this, tend to over-reach. Accentuating the evidence in Klitschko's favor beyond reason; using scr.aps of evidence at face-value to weaken the case for the speculative opponent. That, on the basis of size; an imagined "Olympic" standard: an imagined fear he would impose on elite Heavyweights; an imagined skillset, never once seen against an elite level opponent, somehow leads to a TKO 6 for Klitschko, is indeed far fetched.

 

Vitali too slick? Haha young Foreman's speed was underrated/ Vitali doesn't have the power to earn Foreman's respect let alone keep him at bay. Foreman TKO5. Vitali gets turned into a human punching bag.

 

Big g all day

 

Vitali dices him up and stops him ...

Foreman was one of the most physically gifted heavyweights that ever lived but he had a short amateur career and a very short growing curve in his first career .. he really never learned to punch straight .. just brutally, naturally strong , a monster .. Vitali had a iron chin and heart .. would stay away early and dice George up ..

 

Right because Ali as slick as he still was resorted to rope a dope because Foreman cut off the ring so well, but slow as molasses Vitali is going to stay away. Vitali throws a lot of arm punches, has a leaky guard, and would be outjabbed. The wide looping punches might work better against Vitali because he is so stationary. I really never got the whole iron chin concerning Vitali. Why does he have an iron chin, because he got 60 stitches against Lewis? Imo he was floored against Sanders. All due respect because Vitali is a beast, but he never overcame adversity to win, Foreman has on more than one occasion. To beat a prime Foreman you needed to be a real savvy slickster with an iron chin.

 

atsch

 

:huh Have you actually watched Vitali fight? He's anything but stationary. Granted he doesn't use much lateral movement but his control of space is second to none. If Corrie Sanders, who had way faster, straighter punches than Foreman, struggled to land flush on Vitali, what's Foreman going to do with his clubbing shots? He's going to get those arm punches in the kisser all night, that's what, just like the other big strong guys that threw looping power punches like Briggs and Peter. Vitali whitewashed those dudes.

Never off his feet in his entire career despite being hit with Lewis' best Sunday punch uppercut? Here's a conundrum for you: if his defence was leaky, if he had stationary feet and a poor chin, then how in God's name can he never have been even floored despite facing some huge hitters? I'd like to believe Sanders floored him because Sanders is one of my favourites, more so than Vitali. But if you re-watch that bit, it's a 50-50 call. Sanders had a habit of pushing guys that he'd just tagged hard, over. For the sake of argument, let's admit he had floored him. Off a perfectly placed counter that caught Vitali coming in. That shot from Sanders usually ended the fight on the spot against others. Hardly an indictment of his chin.

Eh, Vitali genuinely wanted to continue against Lewis despite his face falling off and being blind in one eye. If we accept that Sanders knocked him down in their fight, then there's another example of how he overcame adversity to win. (Do you see how your arguments bump into each other here?) I'd say he could "overcome adversity" if he had to. Furthermore, even if we accept your argument that he never overcame adversity to win, I would then say that this is a statement on his excellence as a fighter, which demonstrates how far ahead he was from the rest of the pack.

 

By "control of space", do you mean to refer to Vitali's control of distance? If so, do you honestly believe this aspect of his game was second to none?

Are you really comparing a 38 year old Sanders, an overrated Peter and a washed up Briggs to a prime Foreman?

Foreman had far more than just looping, clubbing shots in his ars.enal. I think people get too carried away with Ali's 'robot George Foreman parody'. Foreman threw all manner of shots and, contrary to what I'm reading in some of the posts here, he could throw straight punches; long and short right hands, uppercuts, as well as his hooks and a overhand rights - all of them vicious and hurtful, including his jab. It's a fallacy to assume Foreman was some kind of limited, two-punch slugger.

The fact that he was able to so readily throw his wide and wilder shots, usually to finish the job, is testament to how easily he found opening up his opponents' defences.

Everyone has to give Vitali Klitschko credit for his chin. But, he never underwent a sustained assault of the type Foreman would lay on him and he never faced anyone, who was capable of delivering that type of onslaught.

Do we put this one down to overcoming adversity? Surely, we cannot since the fight was stopped and we will never know if he could have overcome the position he was in or not.

Showing bravado after the fact carries all the benefits of being removed from the heat of battle.

This could equally be used to further argue the case of there being a lack of elite, or even world class opposition on Vitali's ledger - and a lack of high quality challenges faced, therein.