A Challenge to ESB

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Jul 27, 2009.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    My imperssion of a prime Sullivan is of a very quick man...obviously it's very hard to be sure but the impression i've formed is off a guy whose speed set him apart from the other big men.
     
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    #16
  2. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    One or two other things...

    In response to "What does a normal fighter at this period look like?", peruse the James Boyle O'Reilly book, which has drawings based on "instantaneous photographs" from sparring. One of them even shows an uppercut "as Sullivan throws it".



    http://books.google.com/books?id=EP...xf3fCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

    In James Boyle O'Reilly's "Ethics of Boxing and Manly Sport" (link above), in action, the following techniques are shown in freeze-frame....

    The round right-hand blow to the head or neck (p. 9)

    Ducking the round blow (p. 10)

    One fighter misses (p. 30)

    A round blow missed (p. 53)

    Another swing and a miss (p. 55)

    Cross-counter to a lead lunge (p. 61)

    Uppercut as Sullivan throws it (p. 62)

    Straight counter to jab (p. 73)

    Ducking a jab / lead left (p. 83)
     
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    #17
  3. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Well, the bare-knuckle era isn't exactly my cup of tea, but it's damn good to have you back, cross_trainer. So long as you know that this officially breaks your hiatus and you're once again forced to post here for unhealthy amounts of time from your daily life.
     
    Sweet Pea, Jul 28, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Jul 28, 2009
    #18
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    This content is protected
     
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    #19
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    #20
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Wonderful read Janitor. I want to ask you about this - "Hand and foot speed was on a par with Jack Dempsey's and it might even have been better."

    You also talk about Sullivan being as powerful.

    Sullivan was also arguable more durable and stronger and possibly more well balanced for the ring mentally. Given that you'e described Dempsey as being "no worse off than 50.50 against any HW in history", what does this imply about Sullivan's stature?

    I considered Sullivan a fast fighter - you have him as one of the fasters in history. Given that his hitting as described by you as at least equal and possibly better than Jack Dempsey's, what is your position on a Sullivan-Dempsey meeting based upon what you know? And also, how does Sullivan compare to the other greats of the HW division? Take that question as relative to peers for those who don't like era-era comparisons.
     
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    #21
  7. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Did you notice that in over half of the pictures they're wrestling, not boxing (as we know it) ?
     
    ChrisPontius, Jul 28, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Jul 28, 2009
    #22
  8. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    And in one of them, somebody's actually getting thrown. (Cross buttocked, if I recall correctly)
     
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    #23
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: "cross-buttock"
     
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2009
    #24
  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Terrible name, I agree.

    It looks like this:

    This content is protected
     
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    cross_trainer, Jul 28, 2009
    #25
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    #26
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes but wrestling throws were permited under London Prize Ring Rules. You had to have some strategy for countering them.

    Those pictures probably don't reflect what Sullivan looked like in a Queensbury fight which was his bread and butter.

    Perhaps you might like to coment on my breakdown of Sullivans style.
     
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    #27
  13. Ted Spoon

    Ted Spoon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well done, Janitor.

    Sullivan, as was the case with Cribb, eventually got to a point where he settled down and revised his fighting methods and lifestyle, if only for a short while.

    Comments have been made about Sullivan's condition against Kilrain, but he was in great shape for that fight where Muldoon had been kicking his butt out of bed at the crack of dawn, feeding him well and sent him out on his roadwork.

    Sullivan was also tremendously strong. Trying to 'close' on him was not a great idea so he was usually left to happily 'mill' on his weaker foe. No doubt much of Sullivan's game plan revolved around his pet right, which he better learnt to apply when men like Mitchell demanded that he took his time.

    The similarly praised 'Nonpareil' Jack Dempsey was once expected to make a challenge to Sullivan; a fight that never was.
     
    Ted Spoon, Jul 28, 2009
    Ted Spoon, Jul 28, 2009
    #28
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You have to wonder what Sullivan might have acomplished had he not descended into alcoholism.

    Even a disipated overweight Sullivan who had been abusing his body for years was able to dominate Killrain at his own game.
     
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    janitor, Jul 28, 2009
    #29
  15. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Janitor from rreading your post i came to the conclusion he was like Joe Frazier

    is that a reasonable comparison?
     
    GPater11093, Jul 28, 2009
    GPater11093, Jul 28, 2009
    #30
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