A comparison of Liston and Usyk's best opponents

They certainly do P4P but obviously not toward a heavyweight resume vs the field. This is inarguable.

 

It's 100% about getting Usyk into the top 10 at the expense of a fringe dweller.

As i posted weeks ago, everything is rush rush rush in the modern world. We'll see where Usyk ends up when he hangs them up.

 

Well you keep doing that and lets see how history judges.

 

You cannot - This is because Cruiserweight ratings are achieved in a completely different weight class, with a distinct talent pool, and under different competitive conditions.

There is absolutely no certainty that highly ranked Cruiserweights would achieve similar rankings if competing in today's Heavyweight division. Thus, counting their Cruiserweight ranking as Heavyweight achievements on Usyk's record is an unreasonable re-framing of their accomplishments.

What does this have to do with you using the ratings of Usyk's Cruiserweight opponents as Heavyweight ratings?

If Joe Louis had spent the first 5 years of his career at Light Heavyweight, beating ranked contenders in that division, and then moved up to Heavyweight, I wouldn't be including his wins against rated Light Heavyweights to assess his Heavyweight legacy. Who would do that?

Calling Usyk's Cruiserweight wins quality wins is one thing. It's a matter of opinion and up for debate - as can be said for your opinion on Larry Holmes' opposition.

Stating that the Cruiserweight ratings should serve as Heavyweight ratings for the purposes of Usyk's All-Time Heavyweight rating is another thing altogether and obviously flawed.

Rank him where you like. Most of his fans will put him there anyway, but that doesn't change the problem with bolstering his Heavyweight credentials using the ratings for Cruiserweights. Whether you apply the same method to Charles is neither here nor there - it is just as problematic.

And, if you applied this method of assessment to every boxer who'd ever traversed weight classes, it would rewrite the history books. But, as we can probably surmise, it would also take an eternity to complete such a rewrite, which I suspect is indicative of perhaps the most cynical of the flaws - That is, you've applied this approach very selectively.

 

He's legit alright now all he has to do is round out his resume further against actual heavyweights and see where he falls. It's highly unlikely he will have the time to reach, say, top 5 but he could potentially make a run at the 10 all things going well. I can't see why he's not top 20 right now tho some might differ.

 

I'm all for interesting comparisons that show shifts in the division over time, but the 'What one achieved in their own time' principle, when it comes to all-time ratings, seems to have been thrown out of the window here.

Historical context remains essential when comparing legacies across different eras and weight classes.

 

What's your objection to rating Liston at cruiserweight? Realistically the guys Usyk beat at cruiserweight could beat Listons opponents h2h

You think Breidis or Gassiev couldn't compete with Folley/Machen etc.

Listons best win at heavyweight is over Floyd Patterson. You think Patterson would be a viable heavyweight today given his chin/style/size? I doubt he would fight above light heavyweight and might campaign at super middleweight.

 

This can be applied to Marciano. One of the criticisms on him was he didn't beat modern sized heavies, but the guys he beat were around the same size, give or take, as the guys Liston beat.

 

What you have said is obviously problematic but the self-evident issues still elude you.

Repeating the same flawed logic will not fix the problem, so thanks for not doing so.

I've clearly explained to you why it is flawed. This is not an opinion-based matter of disagreement. There are inarguable reasons, rooted in fact, for why your approach is logically inconsistent.

That you cannot even acknowledge this is remarkable, but not entirely unexpected.

If anything, you are placing a spotlight on why a case for Usyk as a Top-10 ATG Heavyweight is a tough sell.


Anyway - Good luck with rewriting boxing history. I look forward seeing Joe Calzaghe breaking into the Top-10 ATG Light Heavyweight listings soon.

 

Bang on.