A deeper dive on Roberto Duran's greatness.

@Ioakeim Tzortzakis
Thanks for these brilliant write ups, I have been enjoying all of them!

 

I have absolutely no inside knowledge, but my guess is that Duran wasn't in the same, peak physical condition for the rematch that he was the first fight.

That is no excuse, regardless of Duran's physical condition, he quit, lost the fight and his career should be judged accordingly, no excuse.

I don't consider the statements in the above 2 x paragraphs to be mutually exclusive.

 

Another great post.

Along with a Joe Louis biography, the title of which escapes me, Hands of Stone was the book that triggered my near obsession with boxing history, when I first read it circa 2 decades ago. In a way it makes me sad that I'll never again read a book on fighters as great as those 2, not knowing what was coming next (when I first read hands of stone, I knew about durans fights vs the rest of the fab 4, but very little else).

 

Thanks for the tip, I dont think I've read Sweet Science, so will certainly look it up.

 

As I said, Arcel said he was in fine shape and for me that's all she wrote. You can have an off night anyway, as Leonard claimed he had in his first, and to redo what you've already done might not elicit the same focus and enthusiasm, so that might have been the case, don't know. But that's an entirely different things than the drivel about him being half dead after cutting down weight and whatnot.

If Arcel says he had a good camp, was in shape and made weight well, I will believe that over the excuses made by one who first lied about having stomach cramps and have had similar excuses for his other losses (except for Benitez, when he was overtrained).

It's a no brainer, really. Shouldn't be a discussion.

As I said before, I have nothing to add to that.

 

I respect your opinion on Duran's shape for the 2nd fight, if not your stance that it's the only opinion that should count and therefore doesn't warrant discussion.

For whatever it's worth, my guess is that SRL was in peak physical condition for both of their first two contests, but his strategy for the first, whilst making sense going in, with hindsight wasn't the optimum approach, whereas Duran was in peak physical condition for the first, but not the second. There's no excuse for that and his standing takes a hit in my view because of the 2nd fight.

It's not so much a case of who I believe, I just trust my eyes that Duran didn't look the same fighter in the second fight that he did the first, even allowing for Ray's alternate approach.

All that said, I concede I don't know for certain what shape Duran was in, for the rematch, relative to their first fight, and like I say, I respect your opinion on the matter, even if you do not respect mine.

 

Totally agree, I recall watching a clip of Duran working out for the second fight and even the reporter commented about how Duran looked listless hitting the speed bag.

 

I saw Duran Leonard 1 with commentary by Ferdie Pacheco and he said the fight plan for Leonard was to take out Duran early, inside 4 or 5 rounds. They had in front of them a natural lightweight, older, shorter , and what they thought was a weaker fighter than Leonard plus with a reach and speed disadvantage. The B.S. about Leonards fight plan was invented after he lost, because during the fight Dundee never,never said you're fighting the wrong fight. Winning this fight made a poor street kid rich which set the stage for a malaise that set in on Duran for 2 or 3 years. You're right by the way, the eye test was clear in the second fight this wasn't the same Duran that hammered Sugar Ray. Freddie Brown said the only reason he moved to 154 is he didn't want to train to lose the weight. The no mas fight was followed by uninspired efforts and the sluggish loss to Benitez and the embarrassing effort vs Laing. I thought he was through until I saw a video of him training for Cuevas, he looked like his old snarling self and writers suggested his pride had been so stung he would prove everyone wrong. I believe it was matchmaker Teddy Brenner who told Arum after the Laing fight that there's nothing physically wrong with him he just isn't focused on boxing, fame and fortune presented a far greater obstacle than poverty. To this day I believe Ray Leonards greatest fight was his loss to Duran as he showed immense heart in the face of one of the greatest pound for pound fighters who ever lived.

 

Best boxing book ever, Greg. I have a degree in European literature and it is the book with the most memorable prose I have ever read by a country mile.

@Saintpat and I exchanged slobbering eulogies about it in the thread of Ioakeim's in which he took a dive on Archie Moore. Pat even posted the link to the essay 'Ahab and Nemesis' at which point, he became saintly. Go on, mate, have a read then message me and tell me what you think.

 

Yeah, there's a good poster in this thread who sees it differently, but calling it as i see it, its pretty clear to me that Duran's level of discipline and preparedness varied in different fights, including his first 2 versus Ray.

That doesn't mean we should discount Roberto's performances when he was in sub optimal shape. You can recognise it, without excusing it. That's my position, anyway.

 

Thanks Eddie. I'm definitely going to make it my business to order this book now.

 

I just DMed you with a link to the essay Pat posted, dude, in a rare moment of control freakery.

 

Not only every boxing fan, but every person who reads should read the collection of essays that is THe Sweet Science.

Amen, brother.

 

OUTSTANDING--100% agree word for word!! Duran surrounded himself with an entourage of leeches after the 1st Leonard fight and went on an out of control bender for weeks! You can tell in the 2nd fight he was nowhere near what he was in Montreal. Leonard played it smart by getting a quick rematch and he stayed in top condition. No excuses--Duran blew it big time!!