A defence of Jess Willard

lufcrazy · Sep 2, 2012

janitor said: ↑

An interesting hypothetical.

I have argued that Sam Langford could have beaten Johnson after 1910, but by no means everybody here is sold on the idea. By 1915 Langford, Jeanette andMcVea regetting a bit l in the tooth themslves.

It might be the case that Willard was the only fighter who could have turned the trick.

Gunboat or Fulton might theoreticaly have been better, but I don't think that either of those guys could have beaten Johnson in Havana.

My reasoning is that Johnson would probably have taken them outbefr he ran out of steam.
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I think johnson, by 1915 was dramatically declined. He'd spent too long being unfit, inactive and on the run.

The 5 guys I mentioned were all operating at a higher level in my opinion.

The fact the fight was essentially a finish fight just makes me more confident of a Johnson loss. Over ten he could well have remained champion until dempsey providing he continued his shambolic matchmaking, but over a massive round limit I struggle to see Johnson lasting with high level opponents by that year.

The one thing to consider is that jeannette, mcvey and langford had all beaten the snot out of each other for the previous 7 years so could have suffered more than Johnson's inactivity suffered him.

But had Smith got his shot I imagine he'd have prevailed. Wills and Fulton i'd bank on prevailing over the long run.
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janitor · Sep 2, 2012

lufcrazy said: ↑

I think johnson, by 1915 was dramatically declined. He'd spent too long being unfit, inactive and on the run.

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I agree, but it would still have taken an exceptioal fighter to beat him.

The 5 guys I mentioned were all operating at a higher level in my opinion.

The fact the fight was essentially a finish fight just makes me more confident of a Johnson loss. Over ten he could well have remained champion until dempsey providing he continued his shambolic matchmaking, but over a massive round limit I struggle to see Johnson lasting with high level opponents by that year.

The one thing to consider is that jeannette, mcvey and langford had all beaten the snot out of each other for the previous 7 years so could have suffered more than Johnson's inactivity suffered him.

But had Smith got his shot I imagine he'd have prevailed. Wills and Fulton i'd bank on prevailing over the long run.
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How many of the guys you have listed could have withstood the beating Johnson dished out for over 20 rounds?

Johnson was still beating the snot out of Gunboat Smith in sparring, and Smith refused a title shot when Johnson offered him one. The least you would have to give Willard is that he took the shot when offered it, whlie Smith wantd to wait for Johnson to get older.

I don't think Fulton could have survived Johnon at this stage of his career. Remember that he wen't life and death with Tom Cowler, who a post Havana Johnson dominated.

That basicaly leaves you with the black dynamite crew. Langford was past his prime, but significantly closer to it than Johnson was. I think he could have taken Johnson, but I have failed to convince many of this.
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lufcrazy · Sep 2, 2012

janitor said: ↑

I agree, but it would still have taken an exceptioal fighter to beat him.

How many of the guys you have listed could have withstood the beating Johnson dished out for over 20 rounds?

Johnson was still beating the snot out of Gunboat Smith in sparring, and Smith refused a title shot when Johnson offered him one. The least you would have to give Willard is that he took the shot when offered it, whlie Smith wantd to wait for Johnson to get older.

I don't think Fulton could have survived Johnon at this stage of his career. Remember that he wen't life and death with Tom Cowler, who a post Havana Johnson dominated.

That basicaly leaves you with the black dynamite crew. Langford was past his prime, but significantly closer to it than Johnson was. I think he could have taken Johnson, but I have failed to convince many of this.
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Not sure i'd go as far as exceptional.

How many of the guys I listed do you think Johnson could have given the same beating too?

I didn't know gunboat refused the fight.

Fulton could jab just as well as Willard could. That version of Johnson wouldn't stop him and certainly not outpoint him. Same with Wills.

Black dynamite have as good a chance as anyone it's just they began to lose more frequently around 15.
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janitor · Sep 2, 2012

lufcrazy said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Not sure i'd go as far as exceptional.

How many of the guys I listed do you think Johnson could have given the same beating too?

I didn't know gunboat refused the fight.

Fulton could jab just as well as Willard could. That version of Johnson wouldn't stop him and certainly not outpoint him. Same with Wills.

Black dynamite have as good a chance as anyone it's just they began to lose more frequently around 15.
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The bottom line?

Willard was the only white fighter who could have beaten Johnson at that time.

My personaltake is that he was ready to be taken by Langford or Wills, but it cannot be taken for granted.

Willard is the only person who we can be sure could have beaten him, and we have to give him some credit for that.
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Tomsharkeyfan1 · Sep 2, 2012

In an interview, gunboat smith spoke about willard's durability.

I've seen the film of willard's fight with frank moran - willard possessed a good jab.

Willard's main problem was his lack of aggressiveness against his opponents.

Tomsharkeyfan1 · Sep 2, 2012

To janitor - you have phenomenal knowledge of the oldtimer
boxers.

Are there any good news articles about gunboat smith and frank moran?

lufcrazy · Sep 2, 2012

janitor said: ↑

lufcrazy said: ↑

The bottom line?

Willard was the only white fighter who could have beaten Johnson at that time.

My personaltake is that he was ready to be taken by Langford or Wills, but it cannot be taken for granted.

Willard is the only person who we can be sure could have beaten him, and we have to give him some credit for that.
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Not the only one who could, that's naive at best. Certainly the only one who did though.

He gets credit for beating a faded legend. He gets credit for looking like a champion against the solid but not spectacular moran. That's as far as we can go in reality.

We have to remember that Johnson was 5 years removed from his prime form and was no longer the unbeatable man he appeared to be the previous decade.
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janitor · Sep 2, 2012

lufcrazy said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Not the only one who could, that's naive at best. Certainly the only one who did though.

He gets credit for beating a faded legend. He gets credit for looking like a champion against the solid but not spectacular moran. That's as far as we can go in reality.

We have to remember that Johnson was 5 years removed from his prime form and was no longer the unbeatable man he appeared to be the previous decade.
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Johnson was so far ahead of the other contenders of his day, that even at that stage of his career, he could have beaten prety much anybody.

I don't dispute that he was as far removed from his best as you say, but even in his 40s Johnson could have beaten most of the contenders.
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SuzieQ49 · Sep 2, 2012

Harry Wills, Sam Langford, GunBoat Smith, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette all would beat a fat blubbery 37 year old johnson in a FIGHT TO THE FINISH in 1915.....

How many could beat him in 15 rounds? Maybe none, but neither could willard

Frank Moran, a white gooftrooper gave johnson all he could handle in 1914

janitor · Sep 2, 2012

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

Harry Wills, Sam Langford, GunBoat Smith, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette all would beat a fat blubbery 37 year old johnson in a FIGHT TO THE FINISH in 1915.....

How many could beat him in 15 rounds? Maybe none, but neither could willard

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I tink you are reading too much into the fight to the finish part.

The relity is that Johnson woul have stopped most of these fighters bfore the distance became an issue. He could easily have made Willard fight him over 15 or 20 rounds if he had so chosen.

Langford would have beaten him post 1910 in my oppinion, but you have sded aginst me onthi issue.

Johnson would have beaten McVea or Smith at any point in the tmeline you could pick. He just had their number.

The bottm line is that they didn't do it, Willard did.

janitor · Sep 2, 2012

Tomsharkeyfan1 said: ↑

To janitor - you have phenomenal knowledge of the oldtimer
boxers.

Are there any good news articles about gunboat smith and frank moran?
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Cheers.

I didn't know of any articles on these guys, and one on Smith is long overdue.

If there is anything specific you want to know, I can try to find a contemporary newspaper article.

ron u.k. · Sep 2, 2012

Boilermaker said: ↑

Even less skill than the Interim Latino WBC heavyweight champion?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EALcYERW-s0&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/url]

You should tell most of those amateurs to get in with the professionals, because they sound more skilled than many of the professional belt holders today.
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Well I though Irineu threw a lovely feint,sorry I meant faint.

lufcrazy · Sep 2, 2012

janitor said: ↑

Johnson was so far ahead of the other contenders of his day, that even at that stage of his career, he could have beaten prety much anybody.

I don't dispute that he was as far removed from his best as you say, but even in his 40s Johnson could have beaten most of the contenders.
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Could have and would have are two different things though. On paper he could have beaten Willard as he was wholly unproven. On paper Tyson could have beaten Douglas. So as i said, anyone COULD have beaten Johnson, but Willard was the one who got there first.

Willard wasn't a special talent, he was durable enough to handle Johnson's power and good enough to beat Moran impressively. that's about the sum of it really.

janitor · Sep 2, 2012

lufcrazy said: ↑

Could have and would have are two different things though. On paper he could have beaten Willard as he was wholly unproven. On paper Tyson could have beaten Douglas. So as i said, anyone COULD have beaten Johnson, but Willard was the one who got there first.
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I think the could/would argument is a double edgted sword in this context. If you place a lot of value on did, then Willard is the only guy who actualy did beat Johnson. The argument against him seems to hang on the hypothetical, that others would also have beaten Johnson.

Willard wasn't a special talent, he was durable enough to handle Johnson's power and good enough to beat Moran impressively. that's about the sum of it really.
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Willard was an exceptional talent in one respect.

He cold outlast prety much anybody.

Smith might have been a better fighter, but he would never have beaten Johnson.
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lufcrazy · Sep 2, 2012

janitor said: ↑

I think the could/would argument is a double edgted sword in this context. If you place a lot of value on did, then Willard is the only guy who actualy did beat Johnson. The argument against him seems to hang on the hypothetical, that others would also have beaten Johnson.

Willard was an exceptional talent in one respect.

He cold outlast prety much anybody.

Smith might have been a better fighter, but he would never have beaten Johnson.
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I'm not arguing against him, I give him credit for beating a faded star. However to compromise with could/would we can discuss favourites to victory but even that is a funny one because noone would have been a favourite over Johnson, but with the use of hindsight I can say I'd make Black Dynamite, Smith and Fulton favourites over the 1915 Johnson.

Outlasting pretty much anybody? on what do you base that statement?

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