A description of the Greb-Dempsey spar

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Melankomas, Mar 2, 2023.


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  1. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Here's an excerpt from Gene Tunney's book:

    "Greb gave Dempsey more than a good workout. For three rounds, Greb darted in and out, peppering Dempsey with punches and eluding whatever blows Dempsey threw at him."

    Here's another quote from a different page which I found extremely interesting:

    "Dempsey, trying desperately for a knockout, found nothing but air with most of his punches. Meanwhile, Greb, so much quicker and faster afoot than Dempsey, peppered the champion with at one juncture with about fifteen unanswered punches. Kearns, realizing that the large corps of sportswriters at ringside were again likely going to write how awful Dempsey had looked against Greb, let the round go for almost five minutes, feeling the Manassa Mauler inevitably would land a haymaker that would knock out Greb. Dempsey never even came close, and, finally, Kearns signaled an end to the round and to the sparring session."

    Another quote:

    "Greb sought a fight with Dempsey several years later, Kearns said: "The hell with that seven-year itch. We don't want any part of him."
     
  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You're on a hiding to nothing sparring a much smaller, faster guy, that's really going for it. Generally the purpose of sparring is not to knock your opponent out. You pretty much have the choice of getting outsped, outboxed and have people speculating that you'd lose a real fight or you can go for the KO and be known as a d%*k, bully.

    There are reports of Dempsey not taking it easy on his sparring partners, but his spars with Greb weren't the same as a real, 15R fight. I don't read too much into the reports of them.
     
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  3. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Seems like Dempsey tried pulling a dick move on Greb then by trying to knock him out.
     
  4. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Perhaps, neither of us know for sure to what degree Dempsey went for it.

    As a general rule I don't read too much into sparring stories.
     
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  5. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    I don't read into most, but this is an exception. If Dempsey really did try knocking out Greb but couldn't, you can't deny that it means that a fight between them would've been very interesting.
     
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  6. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Huge if, imo, but even without it I'd have been interested in a Dempsey vs Greb fight.

    After Greb's final fight with Tunney, where Gene weighed 181lbs, Greb said Tunney had gotten too big for him. Admittedly Greb was passed his best and practically blind in one eye by then, but the comment resonates with me when speculating on Greb vs Dempsey bout.
     
  7. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Yeah but the Dempsey spars were in 1920-21, certainly a different Greb to the one Tunney faced in 1925. Plus Tunney weighed roughly 174-175 in the first 4 Greb fights, so I don't think the weight gain was as impactful as Greb thought it was. Could've just been him aging and being incapable of being competitive with Tunney at LHW anymore.
     
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  8. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Dempsey routinely abused and knocked down his sparring partners. He gave no quarter in training.
     
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  9. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Its funny. Dempsey was famous for being hard on anyone who stepped in the ring with him. He knocked out Joe Benjamin, a lightweight in sparring, he routinely knocked out amateurs and men with no back ground in boxing whatsoever who stepped in the ring just to say they shared the ring with the champ including Paul Gallico, a reporter. He also knocked out and a bantamweight in sparring just a few months prior to sparring with Greb. He was notorious for being hard on his sparring partners. It was said he didnt know how to pull his punches but he actually stated that he believed if you pulled your punches in practice then you would do it in a real match. And yet every time its discussed how Greb kicked his ass in sparring people trot out "Dempsey was going easy on him" or "Sparring isnt the same thing as a real fight." Suddenly, when being made to look bad Dempsey decides hes going to take it easy? Dempsey showed time and time again in sparring and exhibitions that as long as he was in the ring he was going to try to knock you out. The press reported at the time that Dempsey was in there to hurt Greb he simply couldnt.
     
  10. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree Greb had slipped by the time of the 5th Tunney fight. It wasn't a fight at LHW though, Tunney had filled out to a 181lbs HW. You might not think that extra weight impactful, but Greb did.
     
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  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    I wouldnt read to much into this comment. Greb was known to make similar statements about other fighters he had fought as a means of giving them credit. In reality, Tunney likely weighed about the same in Cleveland when he fought Greb as he did in Minneapolis. Boxrec gives weights for the Cleveland fight but no weights were actually reported or taken so that is erroneous. Most reports stated that he appeared about 20 pounds heavier than Greb. More to the point though, far from conceding that Tunney had outgrown him, Greb actually signed to fight Tunney a sixth time in Miami but Tunney backed out of that fight when he became the front runner for a Dempsey fight. When Tunney won the title from Dempsey and he was quoted rewriting the history of his fights with Greb Greb was so irritated that he wanted to fight Tunney again, although by this time it was known to only a few that Greb had retired and had undergone surgery to remove his bad eye. As an example, after Greb defeated Tiger Flowers in 1924 in a tough fight he talked about how good Flowers was and stated that he was now drawing the color line as a way of giving Flowers a compliment. In reality when Flowers was made the top contender for Greb's title by the New York State Athletic Commission Greb hopped on a train that very day heading to New York and signed to fight him immediately. Finally, even you alluded to the fact that by 1925 Greb was rapidly becoming a spent bullet. 12 years and nearly 300 fights against the best fighters across four divisions and a blind eye had taken their toll on Greb. Nevermind that he entered the ring against Tunney in their final fight with a still healing broken rib. The Greb of 1925 was a far cry from the Greb of 1920. Had Greb and Tunney begun their series two years earlier its entirely possible nobody would be talking about Tunney today. Greb fought plenty of men who outweighed him and outweighed Tunney. Bill Brennan was a harder puncher than Tunney and outweighed the Tunney who fought Greb in 1925 by about 15 pounds. That made no difference to Greb. He dominated Brennan in four bouts in 1919. A year later Brennan wrote the gameplan for how Tunney beat Dempsey by circling him, popping the jab, throwing an overhand right whenever he closed the distance and then tying him up. Tunney utilized the same strategy to perfection the difference being he had better legs and better wind than Brennan.
     
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  12. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 MONZON VS HAGLER 2025 Full Member

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    To me it depends who was there. If reporters who were confirmed to be there saw this it has some validity. A reporters words often mattered to the gate so a lot of accounts will have Dempsey brutalising sparring partners when newspaper men were around. If he he struggled with them in attendance maybe…
     
  13. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You don't much like Dempsey do you? Yeah, I know, understatement of the century.

    If you check out Rummy's top 25 by weight class thread, you'll see that Greb is the only fighter I ranked #1 in more than 1 decade. I ranked him #1 in the 1910's and 1920's based solely on fights contested in those decades. He has the deepest and best win resume in history, imo.

    I rank Dempsey a little lower than most and one thing I have in common with you, is being in the minority that rank Wills above him at HW.

    This is a bit of an oversimplification, but the scale of attention I pay to the posts of others is broadly dictated by 2 things:

    1) Their knowledge on the subject matter
    2) Their impartiality and capacity for adopting a balanced view, considering various perspectives

    When it comes to Dempsey and the era in which he operates, you clearly excel when it comes to 1). No offence intended, but imo you're lacking in 2), which is a shame because it is front and centre of my mind when reading anything you write. For this reason, I'll put more weight in what Greb said than anything you've written. That doesn't stop you writing whatever you want of course, but given you addressed my post, I just wanted you to know where I stand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  14. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    It does depend whose account you choose to believe. There are reports which describe Dempsey taking it easy on Greb one day and battering him the next.

    Sep 2:

    "Greb boxed and slugged, Dempsey merely boxed. He never unlimbered his heavy artillery and confined himself to jabbing and short wild hooks. Greb was a whirlwind in action, but Dempsey, despite his greater bulk, kept a pace with the great Pittsburgher."

    https://ibb.co/Gtkm5d5

    Sep 3:

    "The performance concluded with a sliced tongue, occasioned when Greb butted rather savagely in a clinch. And Greb seemed quite relieved when the third and final round was over, for Greb took a socking in the stomach in that last round that is causing him to believe all that he had heard about Dempsey's terrible shooting power."

    https://ibb.co/7gfXBBD
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  15. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    oh boy this one again.
     
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