A few questions about Benn/Mclellan fight...

Yeah, why am I taking a debate with FLINT seriously?

Sorry FLINT, but it's true.

 

Course I know who Reid was - I seen the fight - he dropped Tito.

He was the guy with the dodgy droopy eye.

I watched Reid and and these other America guys like Mayweather and Roshui Wells in the Class of the 96 Olympics.

Way to green to fight Trinidad though.

Same with Vargas - he was only about 20 years old when he fought Tito.
And had barely 15 or 20 fights as a pro.


Trinidad had been Welter Champ - since about 1992 when he smashed Maurice Blocker - very experienced pro - been in the ring with and beaten some real good fighters even modern greats like Whitaker.


Them guys - Reid and Vargas were natural light middleweights and were good amateurs - but had only just won World titles by the year 2000.

Trindad had all the advantages of Experience over them.

Not so much with Hopkins though - who was a very seasoned pro himself - having his first world title fight back in 1993 with none other than Roy Jones.

When you been 12 rounds with a young up and coming fully fledged middleweight in Roy Jones Jnr - suggests Hopkins who had improved since then would be able to handle a career Welterweight.

 

Eubank had the BO after the Benn draw, but wasn't interested in taking risky match-ups like Benn was.


to fight this guy (Graciano Rocchigiani) in his next fight in germany proves eubank wanted to fight good fighters

 

FLINT Tito had not been champ since 1992 Blocker had lost his Lineal championship to Brown years before Tito claimed a strap.

 

Flea you are right that there have been many welters who have become established middleweights. But many more could not. Hopkins is and was the naturally bigger man. He could not have made welter or light middle, or do you dispute that ? Trinidad was a big boiled down to the weight welterweight. Hopkins came down from light heavyweight, his discipline between fights ( a lesson to all young fighters ) is what allowe him to maintain middleweight for so long. Trinidad might have been the second best middleweight in the world and a feared puncher and all the other things you say, but Hopkins was the much bigger man and that helped.

 

Not enough to make it any less of a win IMO. Fact is, Trinidad had already shown he could make the transition.

My point is not that some Welters have failed either. My point is a lot of the greatest Middles are former Welters. Trinidad was neither 'blown up' nor was he any less a Middle than anyone else. It was a 'great' win.

 

Great win yes. But a much smaller middle than Hopkins. If you disagree with that we will just have to disagree no problem there.

He did not physically dominate Hopkins at any point and he did that many times at welter and light middle.

Hopkins skills may not have been enough without the size advantage.

As an aside what is a blown up welter ( examples )if not someone who campaigned 95% of their peak at that weight ? Was Leonard a blown up welter ? Or Napoles ? Hearns ? Duran ? As i said earlier he began his career at a pound or so below 140. And Hopkins a pound or so above 175.

 

Napoles was clearly not adept at Middle. I would say proving yourself as a top 160lb fighter negates criticism of being undersized. Walker, Gavilan, Griffith, Rodriguez, Hearns, Leonard, are examples of former Welters who were also genuine Middles.

Completely hypothetical this (so meaningless, but maybe of some interest) but in an era with same day weigh in's and no junior class Trinidad may well have always campaigned at Middleweight. Hopkins would've had difficulty consistently making 160 as well :good

 

Leonard had one title fight at the weight. Albeit against an ATG and succesfully too.

Trinindad beat Joppy, but lost to Hopkins , in his efforts. This may be where we disagree. Because i dont think in the modern age that qualifies someone as a top middleweight.

Do you consider Michael Spinks a blown up heavyweight ? Being succesful similarly to Leonard somewhat controversially against Holmes, and similarly to Trinidad against Tangstad and Cooney ? Was weight an issue against Tyson ?


Being undersized is not the same as being at a significant disadvantage size wise. Haye was a heavyweight and not undersized when compared to say Liston, Marciano , Ali, Frazier etc etc etc but he was at a significant size disadvantage against Wladimir. I believe Trinidad was at a disadvantage physically against Hopkins , as most former welterweight fighters would be. You may dislike the expression blown up welterweight, but he is still a former welterweight who blew sorry grew into a middleweight

 

Missed your second paragraph, but agree entirely. Thats why its hard to compare a welterweight of today against a welter 50 years ago. Victor Ortiz would not have been fighting Floyd for the welterweight title he would have been fighting god forbid middleweights like Lamotta

 

I think in the modern age it does qualify someone as a top middleweight, standards are lower than ever!

Agree wholehertedly with your Ortiz comparison.

I felt Spinks carried the weight well. Started work now, will look at the above post (it's a good one) in more detail later :good

 

No - I was wrong.

1993 - knocked out Maurice Blocker to become IBF World Champion.

 

Was that a vacant strap?

I say this because it may well be that Tito was never the no.1 in the division. Consider that Oscar beat Sweet Pea in a very close contest. Either you think Pea won that fight and Tito later beat him for the lineal championship (and then lost it to De La Hoya) or De La Hoya was the no.1 147lber and reaffirmed it by putting on a good showing against the definite no.1 Tito.

 

I thought Sweet Pea was the linear champ.

Thats how the boxing magazines seem to have him.

Cant remeber the De La Hoya fight that clearly - but I remeber he put down De La Hoya and Oscar got a gift decsion.

Saying that - I reckon De La Hoya deserved the decsion against Tito - but I would not argue Tito pushed the fight more to get the judges nod.

I think Tito was the number 1 in the divsion.

Shame he never fought Quartey.

 

How can you not remember a fight clearly but say someone got a 'gift decision'? That was a very close fight that could've gone either way.

And Quartey was good but hardly Burley, I don't give two shits that Trinidad didn't face him personally.