A fighters 'Lineal' claim.. Check this out!

To you it doesn't. You're a ****en armchair lmao.

 

So does the WBF and the IBO - and yet they're not included as part of your "official" group or alphabet organizations.

Why is that?

 

No.

Alvarez is the champ @ 160.

FACTS. Learn to live with them..

 

Afraid that the ole guys in the Classic section are gonna urinate and defecate all over your Bumlovkin wet dream?

Lol..

 

You can include them if you want, however, the fact is that nobody takes those organisations seriously.

 

You are one kinky ladyboy.

 

No. FACTS are as follows:

WBA champ = Golovkin
WBC champ = Golovkin
IBF champ = Golovkin
WBO champ = Saunders.

No titles = Alvarez
Never fought at middleweight = Alvarez
Handed over his paper belt and refused to fight Golovkin = Alvarez

Those are facts. Your claim that Alvare is the champion is simply a deluded fantasy.

 

GG is not the man who beat the man who beat the man. That isn't a negative. Titles have lineages and GG isn't a part of the MW lineage through no fault of his own.

 

Nothing to add to previous posts in this respect. The discussion is going round in circles. I've made my view clear I'm going to leave it there.

 

Cotto vs Canelo was for the Lineal MW Championship of the World. It occurred at a catchweight of 155 lbs, that Cotto demanded by the way. There’s no rule that says you can’t fight for a Lineal Title at a catchweight. He’s never fought at the division limit, but obviously it was fought in that division.

He was happy to defend it against him, but he didn’t want to have the terms of the bout dictated to him by the WBC on a 15-day timetable following the Khan bout. The whole concept that he was mandated to fight Golovkin before he even fought Cotto was unheard of and highly unusual. This scenario was created in part by Cotto’s unwillingness to fight Golovkin, not Canelo, and further supported by Cotto not paying the sanctioning fees for the Canelo fight. Canelo was being forced to fight Golovkin for far less money than he otherwise would have if the split and timetable wasn’t being dictated to him. He also had another title fight lined up with Liam Smith at 154 which he couldn’t fight for while holding the MW strap. The reason why you give sounds great, but in reality, that’s completely ignoring all the other factors that were the reason why he vacated.

The concept of a Lineal Champion isn’t absurd at all. I do not think it is acceptable to go years without defending the title. I’ve said repeatedly that it’s a highly unusual situation that’s gone on at Middleweight since Martinez vs Cotto. Cotto, who’s naturally a 154-lber, winning the Title over an injured Martinez, created this scenario.

It’s no more illegitimate than Floyd vs Canelo taking place at 152 when BOTH fighters already held belts at that weight, and then Floyd being allowed toto hold on to those titles for 2+ years without ever defending it again at 154. Take a look at Tyson Fury, he’s Lineal Champ now but appears to be semi-retired. Neither of these 3 situations are really the textbook way Lineal Champions should be going about it. But the fact remains that they still are Lineal Champions, and Lineal Champions should have every opportunity to defend their Lineal Title. I know you see referring to it as an abstract concept, but it’s really not a concept, but an actual real Championship that exists. There are real rules that go into it, and unlike other physical belts, there are different requirements as to what causes it to be won, lost, or vacated.

I’d like to see it defend regularly, but when you have such an unusual situation like we have at Middleweight, in my view that’s precisely when it should be respected more. When you have a fighter being handed a belt like Golovkin was with the WBC, you know damn well that shouldn’t be acceptable to any real boxing fan. Real boxing fans want to see titles won and lost in the ring, not handed over through boxing politics. Thank Goodness there is such a thing as a Lineal Title so that Golovkin can’t unify without having to win it from Canelo.

Before his fight with Smith, his previous two fights were in the Middleweight Division. At a catchweight, not at the Middleweight Limit, not vs a Real True Middleweight, but none the less in the Middleweight Division. Canelo is currently a Title Holder at 154, but he’s also the Lineal Middleweight Champion due to his win over Cotto, who beat Martinez. (who was the Legit Middleweight Champion I think you would agree) The Lineage from Martinez to Cotto to Canelo is what makes Canelo Lineal Champ.

It’s clear that you don’t see the importance or value of Lineal Titles, and that’s fine, but all that matters is that when Golovkin fights Canelo, Canelo will be recognized as the Lineal Middleweight Champion, and Golovkin will have to beat Canelo to become Lineal Champ. So while you value the WBC physical belt more, despite his lack of winning it, I on the other hand put more value on fighters who actually win titles in the ring. This is boxing, not hot potato or musical chairs.

To each his own, but I still don’t know how you can call yourself a true boxing fan without acknowledging the historical significance and importance of Lineal Titles in boxing.

That’s just it, it’s importance is precisely that, that it’s inherently separate from the sanctioning bodies. The Lineal Title exists as something that the sanctioning bodies can’t control or politic themselves through. The Lineal Title is separate to all of that, it’s a Title that occurs by one fighter beating the previous champion and so on and so forth. The sanctioning bodies don’t recognize it because they can’t control it. One of the functions of the Lineal Championship is that it keeps the sanctioning bodies honest, so that even if the sanctioning bodies force a title holder to vacate, like in the case of Canelo & Golovkin, it doesn’t create a new Lineal Champ.

The Middleweight Limit is 160 lbs. As long as you weigh in at or below the limit, you can compete for the MW Title. In the old days, before there was such a thing as Light Middleweight, the Margin of Middleweight was from 147.00000001 - 160 lbs. In reality, Middleweight is anything at or below 160 lbs. Currently, the Margin of Middleweight is from 154.00000001 - 160 lbs.

I see what you’re saying, that you don’t like titles being fought at catchweight. Neither do I, but whether its regular titles or lineal titles, like it or not, catchweight or having fighters weigh in below the limit doesn’t stop it from being a title fight. You’re argument that regular “official” titles can only be fought for at the limit but lineal titles don’t have to be, so therefore it isn’t legitimate, isn’t accurate. Regular official titles can be fought for and won / lost even at catchweights. Canelo vs Floyd at 152 is an example of that. I didn’t like that either, just like you don’t like what Cotto / Canelo was doing with the MW Title, but it is what it is, and both regular titles and lineal titles can be won or lost at catchweights.

 

You misquoted me, and again said that the Middleweight limit is 160 lbs. I’m not arguing with that, but that’s just the LIMIT, anyone is free to weigh in below that and compete for the title. Fighters are also free to negotiate catchweight below the LIMIT and as much as we dislike it, as we’ve plainly seen titles can still be won and lost (regular or lineal) at catchweights.

I agree with what you’re saying, and I’ve been vocal that I didn’t like Floyd vs Canelo happening at 152, nor did I like what Cotto was doing with the MW Title. So I agree that fans shouldn’t tolerate catchweights, but I would just say to you understand that it wasn’t Canelo that was demanding the catchweight. Please understand that Cotto demanded that Canelo fight him at a 155 catchweight, not the other way around. Likewise, Khan stated very clearly that he wouldn’t have fought Canelo at 160, only 155. (he wanted it at 153 lol) So I agree with you that we shouldn’t tolerate catchweights, but it’s a part of the sport frankly made more popular and acceptable than ever by Floyd vs Canelo, which I thought was a terrible thing for boxing. Once Floyd did that, and everyone naturally praised him for it, other fighters started thinking it was okay to do, like Cotto, and it became a bad thing for boxing. All I’m saying is it’s not like Canelo was the one going around demanding catchweights. It was Floyd / Cotto / Khan that needed Canelo to agree to catchweight, or else they wouldn’t fight him, not the other way around. Get it?

I want what’s best for the sport as well, and I agree with you conceptually about how we as fans shouldn’t really tolerate catchweights. But what we desire as fans doesn’t mean we can make up our own rules. I do NOT think it is good for the sport for a fighter to be able to hold a belt ransom for years and years. I criticized Floyd for being allowed (at JMW by the sanctioning bodies with the “official titles” I might add) to hold the belt for 2+ years without ever defending it at the weight. I didn’t like it when Cotto drained Geale and was defending the MW Title at catchweights. I didn’t like any of that, but you can’t blame Canelo for signing to fight Cotto and agreeing to Cotto’s terms. He was simply agreeing to Cotto’s demands to make the biggest fight available at that time since Floyd refused to rematch Canelo at 154 and was holding the 154-lb division hostage.

I’m a fan of Canelo, but first and foremost am a fan of the sport. Unlike you, I recognize Canelo as the Lineal Middleweight Champ. It’s also not Canelo’s fault that Chavez can’t make 160, he’s too big now, so to make the fight, Canelo allowed him to come in above 160.

I respect Canelo in this instance for making yet again weight concessions to dare to be great and make such a big fight. He has the flexibility to do this without the WBC breathing down his neck, so given his lack of a physical 160 belt, it makes sense. And because it’s above 160, it won’t be for the Lineal MW Title. We disagree on the Lineal Title, you think it’s an abstract concept while I see that it’s a real Championship. But otherwise, we actually agree about a lot, we both dislike catchweights, we both think they are bad for boxing.

But I’m just not going to take away Canelo’s claim to the Lineal Title just because his opponent (Cotto, and then Khan) would only fight him at 155. That’s their problem, not Canelo’s, and DLH has stated he has no problem with Canelo fighting Golovkin at 160, where it should be, which would be good for boxing. I just try to point out hypocrisy where I see it, and I do respect someone (Canelo) who repeatedly makes sacrifices / weight concessions to dare to be great to make fights. I don’t think it’s right, I don’t think he should have had to drain himself for Floyd, for example, but it does show that he’s willing to do whatever it takes to make big fights.

For Chavez in particular, the fact that he’s willing to go above 160 to fight such a big guy in Chavez does gain him respect, because he’s giving away a lot of weight. But at the same time, after fighting Chavez I do hope that he fights exclusively at the Middleweight Limit for the foreseeable future. I personally want to see him fight Golovkin in September and I hope it happens.

 

The WBF and IBO are just as "official" as the WBA/C/O and IBF? The title holders of the WBF and IBO at 160 have just as much claim to the MW title as does Bumlovkin..

 

Well, I think that's something we can all agree on. A fair fight and the better man to win, whoever that may be.