A funny thought regarding Chavez and Camacho....

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It's like you already said. Camacho never went to battle the way Chavez did. Instead he stayed away from his foes and at times even ran a bit. You never saw anything like that with Julio.

 

Chavez has been in enough wars not to be judged by you.

 

Both times Chavez supposedly quit, he had nasty cuts that merited a stoppage.

The fight with Randall, not only was that a big nasty gash, right above the eye that would have impeded his vision, but Randall's dome collided violently with Chavez, that I believe Chavez was in a daze from the clash.

I was looking the other day at the first Pac-Morales fight, there was a violent clash of heads, and Pac was dazed by it.....he even gave the impression that he did'nt want to continue.
Pac kept motioning to his head that he had been headbutted, just like Chavez did vs Randall.
The only difference is that the ring doctor did'nt deem Pac's cut nasty enough to put a halt to the fight, thus Pac was forced to continue.

Had Chavez been forced to continue by the ring doctor, I have no doubt he would have done so.

I've seen plenty of fighters after they have been headbutted, who have given me the impression that they did'nt want to continue.
Once the daze from the impact to their skull subsides a bit, they're back to the same fighter giving 100%.

With Randall, the fight was stopped due to a nasty cut, Chavez did'nt quit!
I agree, by looking at Chavez mannerisms, he did''nt look like a fighter who wanted to continue, just like Pac's mannerisms vs Morales, but Chavez never told anyone in that ring that he did'nt want to fight.


The fight with DLH was an ancient Chavez who gave everything he had for 8 rounds.
Against DLH at the end of the 8th, Chavez was a spent fighter who's inside of his mouth got busted up by a DLH combination that was exclamated by a DLH thunderous 45 hook that misplaced Chavez mouthpiece and had him bite down inside his mouth causing a severe cut within.
Chavez was a spent fighter who now had a steady flow of blood from inside his mouth.
There is no real reason to call Chavez a quitter for not coming out for the 9th for DLH!


One thing about Chavez in comparison to Camacho.
Chavez has always fought to win.
Camacho in many of his fights has fought to survive, to me thats essentially quitting.
Once a fighter stops trying to win, and goes into survival mode, essentially he has quit, and Camacho did that on a few occasions!

 

Very true. People need to take this into account. It's a bit easier to show guts when you're not taking any risks, if Camacho had gone out in the final, or one of the late rounds, to actually win the fight and go for broke then he'd have taken lots of shots that he didn't anticipate- that's real heart.

 

Bravo.

 

Lets not forget how great chavez was during that era. I remember the comentator said about camacho, ending the fight on his own two feet against chavez is a moral victory.

 

Depends on how good you are and what sense of self worth you have i guess. A great like Whitaker just 12 months later was anything but content just to finish on his feet. Big class difference tho, Camacho did ok given his ability.

 

Dlh, Chavez quit but who was expecting him to do as well as he did?

He was too worn out to be given hope. 100 fights and old age did him in.

As for the reason he no longer wanted to continue, maybe he just wanted to protect his lip. I once saw Arguello cut Escalers lip so badly the referee actually stopped it for that reason.

Have to give Hector credit for hanging in there the 3 times he was brutalized--he was a real lion in the ring.

He may have lost his talent but not his courage.

 

Here's the dialogue between Flip Homansky and Mills Lane

Mills: What do you think?
Flip: No, stop it.
Mills: Stop the fight?
Flip: He (Chavez) wants you to.
Mills: You want the fight to go on?
Flip: Stop it. It should not go on. He (Chavez) says 'no.'

To me, given the tide of the fight, that was a quit. Chavez was going all out and looked tired as hell. He saw an escape route and took it. There's no way Chavez would have wished to stop the fight if he wasn't in deep trouble in the fight itself.

I don't know how bad the cut was, but I think Flip would have let it go on if Chavez didn't say enough.

He quit. He had reason to, but he quit. Others would have went out on their shield. I think they deserve respect for doing so, and Chavez does not deserve the same respect of being in their camp as a non-quitter. He quit.

I know you're going to turn around and tell me Whitaker quit too. Yes, I agree he did. He had reason to, but he quit all the same.

That's true. But face facts, on a couple of occasions when Chavez felt he couldn't win, he literally quit.

 

Chavez was actually something of a front-runner if you think about it, with the exception of the Taylor bout. True, there wasn't a whole lot of guys in his resume who really pushed him, but the greats all had to struggle at times and prove their mettle. The thing that sticks in my craw is Chavez's tendency at times to be whining crybaby. His rematch against Frankie Randall was an outrage. If the cut was an accidental butt, then so be it, but to ask him if he wanted to continue, and have him elect not to was bull crap. Imagine real wariiors from Marciano down to Gatti refusing to carry on like that. That ending in that fight should have never been allowed to stand. Jose whatever his name was wanted to make sure that he would win that rematch and take the title back to Mayheco in that fight. The ref should have either stopped the fight and declared it a no contest, or declared Randall the winner.

 

Camacho was, oddly enough, for a guy who, after Edwin Rosario scared him into being a gutless coward, was actually quite brave against Chavez, and took his beating like a man.

 

I dont know who gave you that information, but it's wrong.
Chavez was'nt given a choice whether he wanted to continue or not.

In fact, as soon as the cut happened the Showtime crew immediately recognized it as a bad and Nasty cut, going as far as mentioning it was in a bad spot above the eye.

Chavez was in a corner being looked at by Flip Homansky the ring doctor, and Homansky told ref Mills Lane, no, thats it.......
Homansky said, "he does'nt want to, he cant continue".....

.....later when Homansky was interviewed, he conceded that Chavez did'nt verbally tell him he did'nt want to continue, but that he took it that way from his mannerisms.
Chavez kept telling Homansky and Lane, he headbutted me.

There was'nt any sign of quit from Chavez up to the butt, then all of a sudden he's feeling in nausea's state.
The man just seconds early had been violently headbutted causing a large nasty cut just above the eyelid.......what the hell do you people want him to do, display that he's raring to go....."let me at Randall, let me at him!!"

Get real people, for those of you who have not experienced getting headbutted in the skull area, its a much worse feeling than getting punched, in fact, its a debilitating experience.

Like the example I gave prior, I've seen many fighters with the same type mannerism that Chavez displayed after he was headbutted by Randall.

Homansky stopped the fight, because it was a nasty cut and Chavez was hurting from it.
The only words from Chavez to Homansky was "he headbutted me" just like Pac offered to the ref in the first Morales fight.
Homansky along with the cut being bad enough to stop, took it that Chavez did'nt want to continue.


Let me say this however, Homansky made it clear afterward that had he felt Chavez could fight and defend himself effectively with the cut, he would have let the fight continue no matter the vibe he was getting from Chavez.

Again, this was not a case of Chavez saying no mas (although I would'nt blame him with that nasty a cut) but it was a case of Dr. Flip Homansky deciding through Chavez' mannerisms that the cut was indeed bad, and Chavez did'nt look like he wanted to continue.



Sorry Scientist, Homansky did tell Lane, he does'nt want to continue, but it was'nt Chavez who told him that. Homansky read Chavez' mannerisms and decided here is a man that does'nt want to continue.
Two different things here friend!

 

The difference in caliber opponent was much different. Camacho never held p4p status and whitaker did. Camacho was more concerned about looking good first and winning second.:bbb