A historians take on the lack of Sullivan's opponents making the cut as the best ( 1920 )

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Nov 16, 2019.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    See the other thread. Or since you worship what Adam Pollack writes, page 207 of his book. " Sullivan has no excuse to offer to to pick up the gauntlet Slavin throws at his feet. " It's a duck. Now just imagine If I pull other stuff from his books, someone is going to be on an uncomfortable defensive :)

    [url]https://books.google.com/books?id=DkTYBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=Sullivan+ducked+on+match+with+Slavin&source=bl&ots=tbclYVdzl0&sig=ACfU3U2aITh6RzHJGzJe1Y3UYPBXlQfU9A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs0_XNhPLlAhVDeawKHRrLDYIQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Sullivan%20ducked%20on%20match%20with%20Slavin&f=false[/url]
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    That's why I said known ring records.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Do you think that Sullivan would have refused to fight Slavin, if he had come up with the $25 000 asking price instead of Cobett in 1892?
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    This was 1890, two years before Sullvian vs Slavin. The people of the times knew Sullivan wasn't acting like champion and the optics of no fight here with Slavin taking the belt says it all. It was a duck. The purse wasn't high enough is an excuse if the amount was close to the asking price.

    Sullivan ducked his fight. So says Pollack. This debate in this forum is over. There's stuff out there from Richard K fox trying to make this match. Bottom line he had chances to make fights with Slavin and Jackson but took neither match.

    In 1892, Sullivan was ready to cash out, so whomever had the highest purse is who he would have selected.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Remember that Sullivan was in court until mid 1890 over the Killrain fight, and Slavin wasn't even in America until 1891.

    Furthermore Sullivan was officially retired, and his vacant title had been awarded to Slavin.
    He might just have fully intended to stay retired.

    His main income clearly wasn't coming from boxing, and he clearly wasn't training.
    I agree that he would have selected whoever met his price (except Jackson), but if he was just wanting to cash out, then why did he bet his entire extortionate purse on himself?

    He was convinced that he was going to beat Corbett, and probably equally convinced that he could beat Slavin.

    The only man that he really seems to have ducked, is Jackson!
     
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  6. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    For information; A W.R.Harding a sports writer rated the best in 1885 as follows;
    1-Sullivan
    2-Mitchell
    3-Freyer
    4-Burke
    5-Greenfield
    6-Killrain
    7-Ryan
    8-McCaffrey
    9-Cleary
    Of the six rated immediately after him,John L defeated 6.
    Burke had wins over Greenfield and draws with Mitchell, Killrain and in 1888 a draw with Slavin in Australia. He also beat Cleary, Glover, Clow, Dempsey and edged an amateur Jim Corbett. These were the men Sullivan was dominating in his early period. Prior to winning the crown he defeated Flood, Elliot, Goss and other top performers of the time. Just because we don't know them doesn't mean they weren't good. Mitchell, Greenfield, McCaffrey, Cardiff can all be argued to be roughly Burke's equal.
     
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  7. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I have stated this ad nauseam but will state it again...

    The distance between peak Sullivan and his contenders is the greatest gap in the history of the division. He was head and shoulder above his competition.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    You didn't the first time.
     
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  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am going to say one more thing about Sullivan, that might surprise some.

    He was actually a very intelligent man!

    He would have made a brilliant an insightful boxing commentator, if the technology had existed!

    When he was sober, he was very sharp and analytical!
     
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  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Sullivan's matches vs people with a listed record I can see in 1884, and 1885 were 4 or 5 round matches that lacked a KO win. Many of the men were much smaller, 5'6" tall to 5'9" tall, and Sullivan failed to stop them. Had the matches been 10 or 15 rounds, who knows if Sullivan would have gassed. They may have been the best around, but there just wasn't much around back then to quality as heavyweight.

    While I agree with this, its clear Jackson rose in 1886 and 1887. Didn't you say a fight with Jackson could have happened with Sullivan before 1892? We agree there.

    My point is a Jackson, Slavin or Goddard fight could have been made sooner then 1892, and all three men were better than the list of 1885.

    Using the fighters W.R. Harding listed, Slain beat Kilrain more impressively than Sullivan did, and Corbett beat Mitchell more impressively than Sullivan did.

    Goddard's wins over Choysnski, Maher, Dooley, Lees, Smith and McAuliffe are better than anyone's best wins from 2-9 on that list, I think. He also drew with Jackson. I'd also mention the name Pat Killen, who fought some Sullivan opponents and had a 54-2-3 record with 51 KO's as a possible Sullivan opponent in the late 1880's.

    Clearly, the opposition atom 1886 to1890 was greater than 1880 to 1885.
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Agree 100%.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Ring record, what we can see and read. You know what I meant. I never said they all of their fights were listed. There could be some unknown wins or losses yet to be discovered and updated to their modern ring records.

    I can see the ages, size and known ring records of Sullivan's opponents, and its not very impressive for the most part. Better?
     
  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Mitchell beat Burke,
    Burke beat Greenfield
    Killrain beat Godfrey
    McCaffrey beat Mitchell
    Cleary beat Dalton
    So let's look at Lees, best win...I dunno, Dooley likewise, Smith(Denver Ed?) his best win was over...Goddard! McAuliffe best win, Killen. Goddard did beat Maher, but in 1892. Even Choynski was a raw novice when Goddard beat him.
    BTW Mitchell hadn't a real fight for SIX years when he faced Corbett.
    Point is Sullivan cleared out the division prior to 1887, and from 1889 was inactive,retired/drunk. Burke drew with Slavin in 1888, Goddards breakthrough was in 1890, while Jackson didn't hit America until 1888. In other words up to 1889 Sullivan beat the best contenders available to him, dissipated as he was.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    P
    Pollack cites a source there, he doesn't make the observation himself,neither does he either endorse or challenge it,he just provides it ,but being stupid you wouldn't know the difference.
    I've never worshipped anyone , but I know quality when I see it and Pollack's work is just that ,thoroughly researched ,objective and excellently presented.Show me one negative review he has received?
    Perhaps if you had read the Jeffries,Johnson ,and Fitzsimmons bios you might have a better appreciation for his work until then I suggest you keep your ignorant mouth shut.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    There was talk of Jackson vs Sullivan in 1889-1890. Sullivan flat out said no to Slaivn in late 1890. What was Sullivan then, 30-31 years old.

    If you trying too say 1880-1885 was better than 1886-1890, the floor is yours. I think we agree it wasn't. Therefore Sullivan is untested vs the best that were fighting from 1886-1891. He fought Corbett of course in 1892 and didn't win a round.