A Joe Jeanette thread

Yes, but in the grand context of things, McVey lost 4 of 6 fights from 2-26-1903 to 8-12-1904, then took a full 17 months off before returning to the ring in 1-25-1906. It is written that McVey nearly quit boxing.

I don't think MCvey did enough or was ranked high enough from 1903-1906 to earn a title match with Jeffries who was lineal champ from 1899-1905, though as you said being balck did not help his case.

Do you have any Jeanette vs Mcvey reads?

 

UGH. Another one of my thread is about to change its tune.. Was there ever money up to the tune of what Jeffries made vs Fitz, Sharkey or Corbett for a Jeffries vs Johnson fight while Jeffries was champ from 1899-1905? No. I have lookd for it. It is not there. If the money was up, then things could have been different. Jeffries though racy was very into the money in prize fighting. Jeffries said " Johnson could not draw files when he was champion, and offered to fight him in private. " In terms of drawing the color line as champion, Johnson was worse than Jeffries, and also said some deragaotry things about blacks. The diffrence here is there were several offers for Johnson to fight Jeanette, Langford, and Mcvey...as much as $50,000, yet Johnson as champion refused.

Johnson had at least 25 known fights under his belt, and quite a few battle royals. This fight was in Johnson's home town. By no means was Johnson in-experienced or travel weary. He simply got caught with a power shot, and went out.

Agreed. Griffin was a good in-fighter and strong in the clinches. I have observed that when Johnson fought men near with some size, some power, and good experience ( Hart, Choynski, Griffin ) his results were poor.

No historian alive thinks Hart, Choynski, or Griffin were better than McVey, Langford, or Jeanette; however they clearly were when Johnson fought them. Based on this, I beleive Sharkey, Corbett and Fitz would have likely defeated Johnson from 1899-1903 too.

Johnson's star began to rise when the above fighters retired, then he went on to fight easy title opponents in general. Upon review of Johnson's record, Jeffries easily disposed of a prime version of Mexican Everett, and Munroe, while Johnson took these people the distance. Differences in performance can also be seen in the Griffin, and Choynski fights.

Looking back 100 years, Jeffries biggest mistake was not giving Johnson a title shot in 1903 to the Hart fight. A prime Jeffries in my opinion would have won this fight. Looking at the ring records from 1899-1905, this is a very logical conclusion. Even when Jeffires came back years later, he was still viewed as the likely winner in the opinion of the black fighters such as Langford, McVey and Jeanette. This presumption was based Jeffires returning to form, which he clearly did not in 1910. To me it says they felt Jeffries was better. In fact Johnson in his autobiography not only called Jeffires the greatest of his time, but of all time. The bio was written after Dempsey, Tunney and Louis were champions.

 

Here is a historian's take on Joe Jeanette. There are some intersting tid bits here.

It is sad that Joe Jeannette was never given the chance to fight for the heavyweight title. His personality and skill could have made him the first Joe Louis instead of a boxing footnote. Jeannette the son of a blacksmith was an extremely talented fighter in many respects. On defense, he was elusive and had very good head movement perhaps only his footwork could be questioned. On offense Jeannette used his physical presence to excel in the infighting of the time and possessed very good hand speed. He patterned his style after his hero Sam Langford.

As great as he was Jeannette did not start to box until he was 25 years old, on a dare from friends. Growing up Jeannette's father was a disciplinarian who had his son apprentice under him as a blacksmith, around the turn of the century, Jeannette drove coal trucks. Jeannette as a child however did have his share of street fights but never considered fighting as a profession. He took the sport up because he saw it as a easier and much more profitable way to make a living than blacksmithing.

Within 2 years of turning pro Jeannette was already considered one of the best black heavyweights in the nation, and had already fought the much more experienced Jack Johnson 7 times. The results
were pretty telling as Jeannette won 1 fight, drew 1 fight, lost 1 fight and the rest of the bouts with Johnson were called no decisions. Perhaps this is why Jack Johnson did not fight Jeannette after he won the heavyweight title and Jeannette had time to hone his skills.

Since none of the white heavyweights would fight Jeannette, he decided to fight the other great black heavyweights of his time. He
fought his his Idol Sam Langford 15 times wining 3 while loosing 6 and drawing 2 while the rest were no decisions. he fought his most famous rival Sam McVey five times going 1-1-2 including a famous bout in 1909. In that fight which I think is the greatest fight of all-time Joe Jeannette overcame 22 knockdowns in the first 37 rounds to stop his long time rival. The endurance of Jeannette in this fight was phenomenal as kept coming back and in the 39th round he finally put McVey down for the first time. Yet Jeannette was to go down another 18 times while McVey hit the canvas 6 more times. Finally in the 49th round a exhausted McVey got of his stool and collapsed without a punch being landed. The fight had lasted 3 hours and 12 minutes by the time the 46 knockdown fight had ended! This my friends was in my mind the greatest fight of all-time.

Georges Carpentier one of the few world class white fighters in the world who would face black fighters also fought Joe Jeannette.
The smaller and still maturing Carpentier lost a one sided decision over 15 rounds in his hometown of Paris. Jeannette always felt hurt that Jack Johnson did not give him a title shot when it was obvious that he deserved one. He stated that "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people." Jeannette never did get a title shot even as he fought on into his
40's.......he was still to good at that advanced age to take a chance against. It is though that he participated in over 400 bouts many of which were never documented. His life after boxing was a successful one as his good spirit and personality helped him in establishing a gym, to referee bouts and run a limousine rental company in a
white business world.

 

Maybe for 1.5 years between 1903 post Corbett and 1905 pre Hart, but was the money ever up for the fight? No money, no prize fight. Back in those days people had to put money up. If not no one signed. Had the money been great enough, there might have been Jeffries vs Johnson fight. Had Johnson beaten Hart clean, there might have been enough intersted to pressure Jeffries into a fight too. When the money was up, Jeffires did return years later to fight Johnson.

Choynski taught Johnson what? After the fight Johnson was shaky. The two sparred lightly in jail, but Choynski did not train Johnson at all. Peter Jackson's trainer did. I also question Johnson's chin for going out so quickly on a one punch KO.

My point was Johnson beat young /green/small versions of Jeanette, McVey, and Langford. Its true. Yet he lost to lesser guys who were more mature while Jeffries was champ. Johnson did beat Hart or Griffin. A more prime verison of Johnson was floored by a slow and crude Kethel, and looked bad in a 6 round match vs Jack O'brien. He looked horrible and was lucky to get a draw vs Jim Johnson. Johnson was only slight better on Moran. I fail to see Johnson being great on film, and he looks shaky in many news read on other fights.

It was his style vs harder punchers. Johnson went at older / smaller guys / less skilled guys. Films tell the tale. See Burns or Ketchel. Johnson was agressive here. He gave bigger guys like Jeffries and Moran more respect.

Fighters say stupid things when they lose. I think Jeffries had too much pressure on him to win, should have taken a warm up fight before, and just wanted the press off his back. So he said what he said, but did say he was simply too old to come back. Jeffries also claims he was poisned for the match too. Johnson says the fight was fixed vs Willard, and told many tall tales.

 

Not always. Johnson took a mere $5,000 to fight Burns. After becoming champion, there was money to be made for Johnson.

This is what Unforgivable Blackness says. The book also says Johnson lost clean to Marvin Hart. On film, Johnson was a somewhat stationary target that could be hit.

I do not think the fight was fixed. Johnson made up the fix story after Ketchel died. If it was fixed, then which of Johnson's other fights were fixed for him? Johnson feigning a knockout? NOT A CHANCE. Jack was full of himself, and loved being the champ as much as the money which allowed him to live the high life.

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I think he looks fantastic on film, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one. In fairness his best footage is not available, it makes him look like an "infighter" when in reality he was described by experts as "the master of reach, range and farawayness"[/QUOTE]

Not on most of his films. While the film might be poor, I can still how many punches he threw, if he was an in-fighter or an out-fighter, ect....

I prefer to examine who he beat, and when he beat them to determine significance. Johnson was shaky in quite a few championship fights vs rather poor opposition. He was also shaky on the way up.

Johnson had big time money offers to fight Jeanette, Langford, and McVey when he was champion. He refused. If Johnson wanted to fight the best white hope, he fights Smith. Gunboat Smith had Johnson TKO had on his feet to the point where Johnson’s manager had to save him. I have the news reads if you want them. As for the Burns fight, he was agressive early. ESPN shows footage, but gets the roudns mixed up.

I pretty much agree.