A minor argument against heavyweight modernism

I actually don't think modern heavies are better.

Usyk is the only guy today whom i would put in the same bracket as Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Liston and Frazier - and even he isn't unbeatable like some people think. But he is a bona fide ATG.

Usyk has shown the issue with modern day giants, namely their inability to maintain a high work rate for 12 rounds. Even big men who had good stamina like Fury or Joshua can't maintain the pace that peak Ali or Holmes could. Not for 12 rounds.

I do think the likes of Fury, Joshua, Parker, Kabayel, Dubois, Zhang would be top contenders and even belt holders in any era. But are these guys better than the elites of the 60's like Ali or Liston? Not a chance.

 

AJ doesn't have a good stamina. His stamina is ok at best. Over the course of his career he learned how to pace himself better, but he still can't go more than 9 fighting on the full intensity.

 

its decent for a man of his size but otherwise i agree.

 

Yeah, but I think f.e. Fury is in a league above AJ when it comes to stamina.

 

Another question would be: Why do we auto assume 60/70s(esp 70s) fighters weren't on gear? It kinda seems like a golden time to be roiding since juice was legal, drug testing wasn't nearly as sophisticated(were boxers even tested at the time?), AND by that point it was proven beyond any doubt that even basic Test is good in any strength-intensive sport.

 

It could be that they were. But with steroid users, there are certain signs - premature hair loss, enlarged head etc. I don't think the 70's guys were displaying any of these issues.

 

Starting in the mid-90's the recruitment net was able to be cast much farther, into the former Iron Curtain countries, Cuba and more into West Africa, places with genetically predisposed athletic giants. We haven't even touched the potential of West Africa in that regards but we got a glimpse with guys like Ibeabuchi and Sam Peter, though obviously both flamed out. Eastern Europe's results speak for itself.

 

I think the biggest problem is matchmaking in boxing today. It was better 70s and 60s.

 

It's honestly very dose/compound dependant. Hair loss is usually attributed to DHT stuff(Mast anyone?), while enlarged heads are almost exclusively due to HGH use. Look at Arnold for example - no visual signs of roid usage.

 

yes you are right. Its certainly possible for 70's guys to have been on the gear. However, i will say that the weight gain that they displayed was more gradual. Ali and Holmes both filled out and got bigger over a period of time and maintained their size.

Whereas with Holyfield, the weight gain and muscle gain was stunning and pretty much impossible to do naturally.

But yes, hard to tell and like you said, dose dependent.

 

I’m not arguing or disputing whether Evander did use gear, but it’s been done.

Holy put on about 20 pounds in a year, give or take, and you can take into account that he may have been/probably was cutting some weight to make cruiser.

James Tony once put on 23 pounds in four months between fights. Then eight months later he was 28 pounds lighter than that (so five pounds under the weight he was at before the weight gain). He also went from 167 vs. Roy Jr to 200 in 15 months.

Jimmy Ellis gained 16 pounds in four months and a total of 32 pounds in 16 months going from middle to heavyweight (and added nearly another 10 pounds to that).

Roberto Duran, if you believe some on here, went from 147 to 200 and back to 147 in five months between the Leonard fights.

Given that I don’t think all of the above were due to steroids, I’d argue that it can be done naturally, unless you want to say Ellis and the others were all juiced to the gills.

 

For all intents and purposes, Stevenson evolved into a professional amateur, accruing far more experience and ongoing development in that realm than the transient amateurs coming through.

For that reason, in its own right, it somewhat stands to reason as to why Stevenson dominated - aside from attributing his successes to modernised training otherwise.

I could be wrong but didn’t Teofilo receive a few dodgy decisions? - his name and reputation in the AMs being somewhat equivalent to Ali’s in the pros - with some of the same level of conscious or unconscious bias possibly applied?

 

The funny part about this post is that every guy on it was known to have used steroids except for Ellis.

 

1:32 Anthony Joshua explains why Rocky Marciano was better than he is:

This content is protected

Thanks for the clarification, champ.