A question about Ali's condition against Holmes...

Yes.

 

You’re spot on.
People being hard on Dundee here don’t realise that there’s no way he could ever have stopped Ali taking that fight.
Although they had a good relationship he was still strictly a hired hand, it was others namely the Nation of Islam who influenced him.
I remember Dundee saying that if Ali was going to fight on it would rather be him in his corner than somebody else.

 

Yeah ... didn't want to belabor the point - people will believe what they want - but if you followed Dundee at all, you know that just wasn't his persona. He stayed out his fighters personal lives, and wasn't a dictator in their professional relationship; even when training, his philosophy was "make the guy think he's in charge." After a round of sparring, he'd tell Ali, "Hey, I like the way you pivoted when you threw the hook" - when Ali had done nothing like that. But the next round, he'd start to pivot when he threw the hook because he thought it was his idea. In the clip posted, he's essentially doing that: hey Muhammad, remember those guys I told you were shot? You're starting to stutter like them ... it was up to Ali to take the hint.

Another trainer might have been more direct, but I can't think of too many who would have stuck with the 20 year circus of chaos that was Ali's career.

Unfortunately, I think the NOI saw Ali as an ongoing opportunity to exploit, and were only too happy to let run as long as they could without regard to consequences. The right word from them would have discouraged a comeback, but that wasn't going to happen.

 

I don’t feel sorry for Ali. He gave out many beatings to boxers who were helpless against him and he definitely carried a few just to taunt and punish them more. Deep down he must have known that he was too old and in no real condition to beat a prime Holmes but I wouldn’t be surprised that he took the fight partly because his ego still thought of Holmes as his sparring partner. Main responsibility still lays with the fighter for taking the fight.

Also I think Holmes secretly took a lot of pleasure punishing Ali round after round though he will never admit it. He always did have a bit of a nasty mean streak in him.

 

I think Dundee is also the person who can be heard frantically yelling "Stop it!! Stop the Fight!!!!" toward the end of Foreman-Fraizier I. Whoever it is sounds like they're afraid someone is about to be killed.

 

I think you're somewhat off point here. Ali did in fact go easy on several fighters that he had in a helpless state: Ellis, Mathis, Quarry and Lyle.

Many believe he carried Floyd and Terrell to punish them more, but I'm not entirely convinced.

 

I thought so too and Ali had his moments in the Berbick fight.

 

Definitely ... though that's as good as he was going to get. That Ali might - MIGHT - have managed to go the distance with Holmes, but I think that might have spurred an even greater beating; another five rounds of pummeling, unless the ref or Ali's corner stopped it.

 

I don't think he could've beaten a single world's champion. Holmes completely carried Ali out of pity. Ali wasn't even medically fit to fight, which is pretty sad, since just 5 years before he was still more than good enough to beat everyone in the division. He should've really called it a career by the end of 1975, since in 1976 he didn't look good at all and by 1977 he was completely shot. Holmes liked Ali and showed him mercy, but other champions from other divisions most likely wouldn't have held back on Ali and would've went to the body and went for the kill. Saad Muhammad wouldn't have given two squats about knocking an old broken Ali flat and neither would Hagler, or Pryor. This is the same reason Hopkins fought Kovalev instead of Stevenson. Kovalev was clearly pulling his punches most of the fight out of pity for his opponent until Hopkins being the arrogant man that he is taunted Kovalev in the last few seconds of the fight and almost paid dearly for it. Stevenson wouldn't have shown Hopkins one bit of mercy and Hopkins knew it.

My former kickboxing/boxing trainer was a sparring partner for guys like Quarry, Ron Lyle, and Bobby Chacon and said the main reason he never turned pro is more often than not guys leave too much of themselves in the ring, which Ali clearly did.

 

Those last fights are hard for me to watch because I don't know if I've seen a fighter further from their prime than Ali was. Guys slow down but Ali had absolutely nothing. He wasn't just slow but his coordination was clearly gone. It's not like watching a Roy Jones who's speed is gone. With Ali, he's clearly in poor health. He does look better against Berbick but I can't imagine him beating any heavyweight.