A Question Regarding FOTC?

Frazier defending his title, it’s not his fault they stripped Ali of his license and title, he can only beat who’s in front of him.

 

But didn’t this happen when James J Corbett retired. Bob Fitzimmons won a version. Then Corbett changed his mind. And Fitzimmons became champion, not defending against Corbett. Opposite happened with Johnson and Jefferies. I see what you’re saying but what would’ve happened say Ali win against Frazier in FOTC. What if Jefferies happened to land a big one on Johnson and won. What would historically have happened to Johnson and Frazier’s recognition as champions?

 

I see it as A.
A lot of people are like "oh Joe Frazier helped Ali etc etc helped him get his liscense back" . I'm sure Joe was a nice guy,but I think a lot of it was because he wanted to prove probably to himself than to others that he was the best. Because the heavyweight division before the mid 90s I'd say was just a big d measuring contest, which is why George spiraled into depression after a loss.

 

There really isn’t a logical case to say Ali was the champion, only an emotional one. Frazier was defending, Ali challenging. Whatever our feelings on Ali’s status may have been, objective facts are objective facts.

 

Then they would have been recognised as having established a new lineages which their victors then carried on. When you retire as lineal champ you end your lineage irrespective of whatever happens afterwards.

 

Similar questions:

Was Briggs defending the title against Lewis?

Was Fury defending the title against Pianeta? Against Wilder?

Who was the real champion in May, Fury or Usyk since Fury retired for a quick bit in 2022?

 

Usyk was in my book, Fury retired. Sorry, that’s that.

 

Frazier called himself the champion while looking Ali right in the face.

This content is protected

 

That was after Ali started acting scummy and saying mean things.

 

At the time it was seen as the battle between the People's Champ and The Man's Champ. Bryant Gumble, sports announcer, is on record as saying he cried when Ali lost.

The shame of it all was calling Frazier the white Man's tool when he had suffered way more racial abuse in his life than Ali ever did. And Ali made frankly racist mocking insults about how black Joe was as opposed to how "pretty" he was.

You had to have been alive and around the match at the time to understand all the nuances around this fight.

 

All true except for Tyson Fury, who retired yet his fan boys insisted he was lineal champ.

 

Probably because he was.

 

Joe had every right to be pissed at Ali, sure he may have helped Ali since he knew he had to beat him to be considered the real champion but they seemed to have a genuine friendship at the time. Once Ali got his boxing license back he turned half the country against Joe, accusing him of being things he wasn't and even got Joe's children bullied at school.

 

The difference was, nobody emerged as the champion during Fury's absense, so he still held the valid claim. He didn't really retired during that stretch as well. Definitely not more than John L Sullivan or Corbett.

 

It’s really a great question Ferg.

I see the obvious objections that might be raised but what if the perspective was pivoted on the actual outcome and then applied restroactively?

So, IF Joe won (which he did of course) then it’s a defence - not Joe’s fault that he couldn’t get to Ali earlier than he did but ultimately proving he was the better man.

However, IF Ali won, then it could’ve been seen as defence of Ali’s original title - not Ali’s fault that he couldn’t accomodate a fight against Joe earlier than he did but him still ultimately proving that he was always the # 1 guy even while in the background.

Further, IF Ali had won the FOTC, I wonder what frame he would’ve preferred

A) Either simply him having successfully defended his original title

OR

B) Him having been only the second man to regain the title.

I tend to think that Ali might’ve preferred the second, more elite accolade with the added bonus of him still never having actually lost his title in the ring. A win win.